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Using bitcoin to pay for services

Using bitcoin to pay for services

ServerHandServerHand Member, Provider

How many people prefer to use bitcoin for services-- and if you do, are you less likely to provide contact details like name, phone, address?

The whole prospect makes me feel nervous.. I accept bitcoin but then again, some people do it for privacy but then again my billing system asks for all the above details even if you do use bitcoin. So it feels (maybe I'm wrong) that it defeats the purpose of bitcoin.. to pay without giving out details, am I wrong?

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  • Unless you check the contact details, then you are essentially taking on anonymous users and have no recourse but to shut them down if they misbehave. Nothing wrong with that, but I wonder if that's workable in the real world.

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  • VirMachVirMach Member, Provider

    The purpose of paying with Bitcoin isn't really anonymity anymore - at least for most people. We have some customers that complain that we collect their details, but the majority of customers just use it because they have Bitcoin and they want to use it. Many customers use Bitcoin alongside other payment methods too. In some cases, customers use it when not passing the fraud check as an alternative to other solutions. Others may use it to make a one-time payment without sharing their PayPal or card details. They might just be getting rid of their Bitcoin without having the fees involved with exchanging it for cash.

    We (and some other hosts) probably don't want the trouble involved with anonymous users. It just doesn't work out well. A lot of bad (illegal) things usually come along with it. I'm sure some hosts will allow you to sign up with fake details if you use bitcoin though.

  • YmpkerYmpker Member, Provider

    I just used BTC for purchasing yet another service :) It's just totally easy and straight forward to pay with. Scan QR code or open wallet app, pay. That's it.

    /Signature/ https://uptime.is

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  • WindmmWindmm Member

    Personally I prefer ETH. A lot faster than BTC. Its fee is also super steal.

  • ServerHandServerHand Member, Provider

    @Windmm said: Personally I prefer ETH. A lot faster than BTC. Its fee is also super steal.

    Hmm, I think that would be cutting edge, wouldn't it? It'd be nice to take every single currency known to man.. but dealing with bitpay alone was interesting enough. Forget I did verification of my business to get my merchant account, EV SSL etc, they require your first born, your blood type AND your drivers license. I swear they are trying to clone you and make drivers or something.

    ;)

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  • aliletalilet Member

    @VirMach said: The purpose of paying with Bitcoin isn't really anonymity anymore - at least for most people. We have some customers that complain that we collect their details, but the majority of customers just use it because they have Bitcoin and they want to use it. Many customers use Bitcoin alongside other payment methods too. In some cases, customers use it when not passing the fraud check as an alternative to other solutions. Others may use it to make a one-time payment without sharing their PayPal or card details. They might just be getting rid of their Bitcoin without having the fees involved with exchanging it for cash.

    We (and some other hosts) probably don't want the trouble involved with anonymous users. It just doesn't work out well. A lot of bad (illegal) things usually come along with it. I'm sure some hosts will allow you to sign up with fake details if you use bitcoin though.

    I paid for your VPS using bitcoin because I don't have both CC and Paypal. It is good that you are providing alternate method of paying other than CC and Paypal.

  • RhysRhys Member

    @Arcanum said:

    @Windmm said: Personally I prefer ETH. A lot faster than BTC. Its fee is also super steal.

    Hmm, I think that would be cutting edge, wouldn't it? It'd be nice to take every single currency known to man.. but dealing with bitpay alone was interesting enough. Forget I did verification of my business to get my merchant account, EV SSL etc, they require your first born, your blood type AND your drivers license. I swear they are trying to clone you and make drivers or something.

    ;)

    Coinify :P I believe @Clouvider is using them also, they are very nice.

    I recommend hosting at Hostigation (Aff) and IonSwitch (Aff)

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  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

    Coinify is great! Definitely recommend them!

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  • Don't so it she gots two kids!!!!

    Dont'TalkAboutLETClub There is this thing called hoopla.

  • @Arcanum said: The whole prospect makes me feel nervous.. I accept bitcoin but then again, some people do it for privacy but then again my billing system asks for all the above details even if you do use bitcoin. So it feels (maybe I'm wrong) that it defeats the purpose of bitcoin.. to pay without giving out details, am I wrong?

    People have the rights if they want to be anonymous. Nothing wrong about it.

    No need to worry too much as long as they comply with your Terms of Service.

    Thanked by 1nice
  • Ho-ostHo-ost Member, Provider

    When I've received Bitcoin payments any available contact information has always matched up with client information. My guess is that the people who prefer it do so because it's cheaper for them in some way, or they actively include BTC as part of their day to day currencies.

  • try4lontalk said: People have the rights if they want to be anonymous. Nothing wrong about it.

    I agree with you there, 100%.

    No need to worry too much as long as they comply with your Terms of Service.

    The problem is that there is no "they" in this case. It's just some anonymous entity.

    Perhaps that's actually fine in many cases, but how do providers deal with spammers and scammers who trash your IP and then move on?

  • WilliamWilliam Member, Provider
    edited August 12

    Ole_Juul said: Nothing wrong with that, but I wonder if that's workable in the real world.

    Sure. I made a lot of money by that, even before BTC. Anonymous services sell and get cash, the mere question are legal problems.

    Ole_Juul said: Perhaps that's actually fine in many cases, but how do providers deal with spammers and scammers who trash your IP and then move on?

    You A) calculate it in your pricing or B) don't accept customers that seem fishy, BTC or not. Risk is always there.

    10EUR for a 512MB instance you pay backend costs of merely 2-3$ leaves money for issues as this.

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  • One would think that scammers would be averse to using a payment method that is irreversible. Bitcoin is just that.

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  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

    @Abdussamad said: One would think that scammers would be averse to using a payment method that is irreversible. Bitcoin is just that.

    Problem is that when they scam, and the court order / police comes asking questions and you have nowhere to forward them to, you might end up taking a fall for them.

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  • Clouvider said: Problem is that when they scam, and the court order / police comes asking questions and you have nowhere to forward them to, you might end up taking a fall for them.

    that is unfortunate. does the law require you to get customer's real contact details? it seems to me that asking providers to police their customers is asking a little too much.

  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider

    @Arcanum said: How many people prefer to use bitcoin for services-- and if you do, are you less likely to provide contact details like name, phone, address?

    Put a disclaimer up saying you don't accept fake information. If you do want to accept orders without any details then make sure you have a good lawyer that you can afford to deal with the legal problems that will arise.

    @Arcanum said: So it feels (maybe I'm wrong) that it defeats the purpose of bitcoin.. to pay without giving out details, am I wrong?

    Bitcoin is not an anonymous payment so you are looking at it the wrong way. People who think that paying with bitcoin and providing fake details will maintain their privacy is doing it all wrong.

    My advice as a provider is that accepting bitcoin for services is perfectly fine but allowing people to sign up with fake details is bad for you, your business, your legitimate clients, and your data center.

    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, OR, TX, and AZ
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  • ServerHandServerHand Member, Provider

    @Clouvider said:

    @Abdussamad said: One would think that scammers would be averse to using a payment method that is irreversible. Bitcoin is just that.

    Problem is that when they scam, and the court order / police comes asking questions and you have nowhere to forward them to, you might end up taking a fall for them.

    So if you collect information on the customer purchasing service and they pay using bitcoin, do you take additional steps @Clouvider or do you just run the standard antifraud screening and base it on that? I know that one of the services that were used to be high fraud were shell accounts & IRCD services-- bought a few of those back in the day-- and they would call verify every person who ordered before they set it up. Is that something commonly practiced any more?

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  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider
    edited August 13

    @Clouvider said: Problem is that when they scam, and the court order / police comes asking questions and you have nowhere to forward them to, you might end up taking a fall for them.

    This. This 100 times.

    Imagine getting a subpoena from a federal agency and telling them "lol, they paid with bitcoin and gave us a fake name. sorry", you can expect your company to go in some agency database somewhere. Imagine something really bad happens again from your servers, how many times will they ask for details that you can't provide before just getting a court order to go pull your servers from their racks to get the details they need themselves? There have been plenty of instances where law enforcement just walked into a data center with a piece of paper and took a server or 12 with them and the hosting provider didn't even know about it until they opened tickets asking if there was a network problem.

    The bottom line is that regardless of your stance on privacy/anonymity, you shouldn't assume you're protected by any laws/rights and you need to do everything in your power to protect your clients. If you accept orders with fake details in the name of privacy then that's fine, just don't plan on using that as an excuse if one bad client impacts the rest of your clients. Also keep in mind that data centers don't want to deal with that kind of stuff so even if law enforcement doesn't get involved your data center might just as easily give you the boot if they feel you don't have your hardware/network under control or if their legal department has to get involved in your account too often.

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  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

    @Arcanum it depends on the service, Customer location, etc, it's pretty rare but we still do it sometimes.

    Heaving said that, there's a fundamental difference between anonymous service where you don't ask / or actively suggest not to provide the details, or accept orders from obviously fake profiles, and the Customer fraudulently providing you with false details to coerce service against your ToS.

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  • KuJoe said: how many times will they ask for details that you can't provide before just getting a court order to go pull your servers from their racks to get the details they need themselves?

    You realize that doesn't make any sense. Right? Perhaps you want to rephrase that using normal logic. :)

  • Ole_Juul said: workable in the real world.

    Maybe there's a market for an escrow company for cryptocurrency (they might exist already , I don't know).

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  • I am miner so I like to pay in bitcoin and ethreum just because I am getting via mining.

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  • EdmondEdmond Member

    I just prefer paying via Bitcoin because it alllows me to make a one time payment without subscribing to it and it's nice and simple to use without supplying credit card details. I do however still fill in legit info for billing since I don't do illegal stuff.

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  • KuJoeKuJoe Member, Provider
    edited August 13

    @Ole_Juul said:

    KuJoe said: how many times will they ask for details that you can't provide before just getting a court order to go pull your servers from their racks to get the details they need themselves?

    You realize that doesn't make any sense. Right? Perhaps you want to rephrase that using normal logic. :)

    What I meant was they'll pull the servers to get any details they can about the user (IPs, usernames, etc...) if that makes more sense.

    -Joe @ SecureDragon - LEB's Powered by Wyvern in FL, CO, CA, IL, NJ, GA, OR, TX, and AZ
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  • StevieStevie Member

    @Clouvider Does coinify accept americans? now I know I am pushing it, but what about New York?

    Signature goes here.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

    @Stevie said: @Clouvider Does coinify accept americans? now I know I am pushing it, but what about New York?

    No idea, I suppose so.

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  • davidgestiondbidavidgestiondbi Member, Provider

    @Clouvider said:

    @Stevie said: @Clouvider Does coinify accept americans? now I know I am pushing it, but what about New York?

    No idea, I suppose so.

    Does it integrate with HB now? Was not a few month ago if I remember well...

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  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

    Not by default. We're working on own module, but won't be able to share due to HB license unfortunately...

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  • davidgestiondbidavidgestiondbi Member, Provider

    @Clouvider said: Not by default. We're working on own module, but won't be able to share due to HB license unfortunately...

    That the main issue with HB. If you want a integration you need to pay yourself or wait 10 years. Quite tired of Bitpay :(

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  • WindmmWindmm Member

    ETH Transactions are Currently 39,684% Faster + 96% Cheaper Than BTC Transactions: http://ethgasstation.info/

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