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1Password's gone bad - recommendations?

1Password's gone bad - recommendations?

raindog308raindog308 Moderator

I hadn't noticed that 1Password has moved to a subscription-only pricing. $180 for the next 5 years? GTFO. Was going to gift the app to my wife but I just burst out laughing when I saw the price and now it's time to move on.

LastPass was awful when I tried it, but it's been a while, but they've been bought. Might have to go back to pwsafe or KeePass. Anything else?

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  • WSSWSS Member

    I don't mind LastPass. It keeps syncronizing between different browsers and platforms incredibly simple. KeePass requires too much care and feeding when I can have LP for $12/yr.

    I've been asked to stop derailing threads. So, stop enticing more-interesting topics!

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  • jarlandjarland Administrator

    That's only for using their sync service isn't it? I use it every day with Dropbox sync, no extra cost.

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  • HarambeHarambe Member

    Mac or Windows? I see 1Password Standalone as a $65 in-app purchase option for the Mac app. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/1password-password-manager-and-secure-wallet/id443987910?mt=12

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  • jarlandjarland Administrator

    @Harambe said: Mac or Windows? I see 1Password Standalone as a $65 in-app purchase option for the Mac app. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/1password-password-manager-and-secure-wallet/id443987910?mt=12

    iOS and android apps are still usable without this subscription too. Looks like their site is misleading really. Implies you have to subscribe but I mean, I have the latest apps and no account with them.

  • MikeAMikeA Member, Provider

    LastPass is great, and it's completely free now for device syncing. Would recommend it... Their chrome app works great and I've had issues with other password manager browser apps.

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  • HarambeHarambe Member

    @jarland said:

    iOS and android apps are still usable without this subscription too. Looks like their site is misleading really. Implies you have to subscribe but I mean, I have the latest apps and no account with them.

    Yeah, I think they're in a weird transition phase. I'm sure they'll only allow subscriptions at some point in the future, but right now you can still do standalone on Mac (and sync via Dropbox/iCloud) and there's a 'standalone version' download link for Windows (not sure if you can purchase a license in-app there).

    "Grab a Slice!™" - 1GB KVM + Dedicated CPU Usage + Unmetered Bandwidth for $3.50/mo - US & EU (Luxembourg)
    (yes that's an affiliate link, because Daddy needs to keep paying @Francisco)

  • jarlandjarland Administrator

    @Harambe said:

    @jarland said:

    iOS and android apps are still usable without this subscription too. Looks like their site is misleading really. Implies you have to subscribe but I mean, I have the latest apps and no account with them.

    Yeah, I think they're in a weird transition phase. I'm sure they'll only allow subscriptions at some point in the future, but right now you can still do standalone on Mac (and sync via Dropbox/iCloud) and there's a 'standalone version' download link for Windows (not sure if you can purchase a license in-app there).

    Last time I downloaded it for Windows it just never even bugged me about a license. Was a bit ago though.

  • bapbap Member

    Your brain, free as long as it actives.

  • raindog308raindog308 Moderator

    I don't see new non-subscription licenses for sale on their web site..? Forums seem to confirm they're only doing subs for new customers.

    I could still gift the app for mac but safe to assume that's going away.

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  • jarlandjarland Administrator

    I don't think I ever bought from them direct but yeah, they make it sound like they'll be updating clients later to require accounts. Either that or just hoping to catch suckers who land there before the App Store.

  • jarlandjarland Administrator

    Never mind, does look like they're just hyping the subscription by making it look like the only path:

    https://support.1password.com/why-account/

    Good, no worries then. I mean I'd pay for it anytime, but not shaking anything up right now.

  • WSSWSS Member

    @jarland said: That's only for using their sync service isn't it? I use it every day with Dropbox sync, no extra cost.

    When I signed up, you needed "Premium" for it to support different operating systems. A few months later, they made it free.

    I've been asked to stop derailing threads. So, stop enticing more-interesting topics!

  • YmpkerYmpker Member, Provider
    edited March 20

    Im using Enpass and quite happy so far :)

    /Signature/

  • alfredalfred Member, Provider

    I still use 1password right now (subscription).

    I thought about building my own just using something like S3 for storage but after reading AgileBits blog I realized there were quite a few small security-related issues that probably should be addressed, like avoiding keyloggers...

    I'm still considering though. If I build it just for myself nobody's going to attack it right?? :P

  • jarlandjarland Administrator

    @Ympker said: Im using Enpass and quite happ so far :)

    Really is the next best thing for someone who enjoys 1Pass.

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  • @bap said: Your brain, free as long as it actives.

    That's if you use one password among many sites, if one of the sites you visit and are a member of gets hacked? Your done.

    It's as simple as Googling your username and finding what other sites you visit, the internet is a very dangerous battlefield my friend.

    Back on topic, I personally use LastPass and highly recommend it. KeePass is also one of the ones I recommend too, I know one of my friends who set it up so it works with AD Authentication and it's also external facing for when he goes onsite or someone in his company does, quite clever. That reminds me, I need to ask him how he got it to work!...

  • bohdansbohdans Member
    edited March 20

    I use 1Pass, but also don't like the push to subscription model.
    I bought it outright, because I like the fact the data is not on their servers.
    I like the look of Enpass, but scared about using a closed source, Indian based, recent (~1yr) released app without any audit.

  • bohdansbohdans Member

    Also, you can still purchase standalone licenses here: https://agilebits.com/store

  • JamesKJamesK Member
    edited March 20

    Have you tried Sticky Password Premium? Currently 50% discount is going on it which provide price $15 for it. You can compare it's features to other password manager at here http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2407168,00.asp

  • johnnymattjohnnymatt Member
    edited March 20

    Honestly i would stay with Keepass even if LastPass is 2 steps forward because i have control of my cute kdbx database all time. Ou dont have passwd sync (for me its a plus, less security problems) with Keepass out of the box and as you know its compatible:

    • Windows/Linux
    • Android/Amazon Tablets
    • Firefox/Chrome (thanks to plugins)

    You have a decent autocomplete (FF > Keefox) and if you want to update your password just connect one sec the peripheral you want to update to your last kdbx.

    Lastpass is too much bloatware (last android version, my single opinion) but my thought is only because im so addicted to keepass that everything else with more functions is ... useless.

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  • jiggawattzjiggawattz Member
    edited March 20

    $180/5y is $3/mo - that's not unreasonable for software that

    • is expected to be secure/audited
    • requires active maintenance to support changes in the platforms/browsers
    • is developed by a full team in the 1st world

    I'm flummoxed that the gracious leader of the LET commentariat class @WSS would even contemplate, let alone suggest, LastPass: https://labs.detectify.com/2016/07/27/how-i-made-lastpass-give-me-all-your-passwords/

    Bad regex parsing is an amateur coding mistake. It's unacceptable when CloudFlare does amateur coding - but it's not a problem when it's the company storing all your passwords?

    (Edit: take a look at LastPass' bug bounty payout too. That's probably less than 1/10th of what the FSB would pay, even under heavy State budget cuts. Is it not worth paying for security?)

  • bsdguybsdguy Member

    If FSB were interested in that he would already have it and without paying.

    As for the OP question: passwords are so yestercentury. I always for everything use the same password because statistic have led me to the assumption that anyone finding out my always-the-same-password for one site will, assume that I use another one for another site, first try all other imaginable passwords there, hehe.

    Moreover I do not trust lastpass and similar sites. That while I always use "1/O" as password. Having a letter, a number, and a special char in it is very secure; but - and that's where the story gets hot - my password can also be read as "one divided by zero" which is exactly what an OCR reader might give as result, if a mischievious site first takes a picture of my password in their database and then OCRs it ... and BANG division by zero exception! That'll be a lesson for them evildoers.

    My favourite prime number is 42. - In memory of WSS: "Our house. In the middle of our street. That's madness! Madness, I tell you!"

  • bsdguy said: If FSB were interested in that he would already have it and without paying.

    That's incredibly naive. This isn't the movies - the FSB doesn't magically make information appear to them because they are Russian villains. They are watching the West's agglomeration of data in awe and they are seeking to exploit that through very practical methods.

  • sinsin Member

    I only ever use Keepass.

  • bsdguybsdguy Member

    @jiggawattz said:

    bsdguy said: If FSB were interested in that he would already have it and without paying.

    That's incredibly naive. This isn't the movies - the FSB doesn't magically make information appear to them because they are Russian villains. They are watching the West's agglomeration of data in awe and they are seeking to exploit that through very practical methods.

    a) what do you really know about FSBs capabilities? b) what makes you assume that the security at e.g. lastpass isn't so lousy that one needs high-class hackers?

    My favourite prime number is 42. - In memory of WSS: "Our house. In the middle of our street. That's madness! Madness, I tell you!"

  • jiggawattzjiggawattz Member
    edited March 20

    a) what do you really know about FSBs capabilities?

    They advertise and actively recruit skilled computer specialists and lure them with better flats, more money and a dismissal from mandatory military service. I don't know if they are getting anyone good, though I assume they have Bogachev.

    b) what makes you assume that the security at e.g. lastpass isn't so lousy that one needs high-class hackers?

    I think LastPass security is lousy, based on the exploit I provided above. Are you insinuating that the FSB isn't interested because it's not challenging enough to exploit?

  • @johnnymatt said: Honestly i would stay with Keepass even if LastPass is 2 steps forward because i have control of my cute kdbx database all time. Ou dont have passwd sync (for me its a plus, less security problems) with Keepass out of the box and as you know its compatible:

    KeePass for me too, hosted on my own VPS with webdav, sync's with Windows, Android and iOS. And no one else has my passwords :)

  • bsdguybsdguy Member
    edited March 20

    Ad a) every intelligence service tries to get good people. Plus: better flats, etc. must come from old sowjet times.

    Ad b) No, I'm not trying to say (let alone insinuating) that FSB isn't interested. Look at what I wrote. I'm saying that they wouldn't pay lots of money to get at lastpass's database; it's simply neither needed nor effective.

    That said I think you have a wrong and probably usa of a impregnated image. FSB, unlike some western services, is professional and they don't work hard (or pay high) to grab just whatever they can get ahold of. I happen to know a little about Russia and IT and I can tell you that they are certainly not behind western services in capabilities, particularly when it comes to tao.

    My favourite prime number is 42. - In memory of WSS: "Our house. In the middle of our street. That's madness! Madness, I tell you!"

  • raindog308raindog308 Moderator

    jiggawattz said: $180/5y is $3/mo - that's not unreasonable for software that

    I hear what you're saying but it's the subscription that kills it for me. I paid $65 so obviously I'm willing to pay. But the idea that I could never stop paying and if I did, my data becomes no longer available (or becomes read-only which I think is the case here) is unacceptable.

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  • Awmusic12635Awmusic12635 Member, Provider

    raindog308 said: I hear what you're saying but it's the subscription that kills it for me. I paid $65 so obviously I'm willing to pay. But the idea that I could never stop paying and if I did, my data becomes no longer available (or becomes read-only which I think is the case here) is unacceptable.

    They still very much sell the one time fee version and have said they intend to continue to support it. The subscription was for those who don't want to have to manage sync themselves.

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  • jiggawattzjiggawattz Member
    edited March 20

    raindog308 said: the idea that I could never stop paying and if I did, my data becomes no longer available (or becomes read-only which I think is the case here) is unacceptable.

    I don't see how this is different than email which is generally sold on a subscription model. If you don't pay your G Suite bill on time, your data disappears 30 days later. Even if you host your own email, your VPS and domain are still essentially subscriptions.

    I think the subscription model is a healthy model for software that is expected to be actively maintained. Previously, commercial software vendors charged you for an upgrade. Of course, you never had to upgrade but Windows 3.11 won't be very useful for you today.

  • akhfaakhfa Member
    edited March 20

    Use enpass with dropbox or another storage provider to sync the database. Works perfectly here. Even I can say that enpass autofill is better than lastpass, and you have control how your database synced :)

    It also have importer from some password manager including 1 password. I have tried lastpass importer, not perfect, but better than you import your data manually :)

    The most important think is it is multiplatform (windows, mac, linux). We need to make one time purchase for the mobile apps, but it still worth for all you will get. I think that mobile pricing is donation for the developer, little amount of money to keep the project ongoing :)

  • WSSWSS Member

    @jiggawattz said: I'm flummoxed that the gracious leader of the LET commentariat class @WSS would even contemplate, let alone suggest, LastPass: https://labs.detectify.com/2016/07/27/how-i-made-lastpass-give-me-all-your-passwords/

    Bad regex parsing is an amateur coding mistake. It's unacceptable when CloudFlare does amateur coding - but it's not a problem when it's the company storing all your passwords?

    That certainly was a rather dumb mistake, likely a solution designed by a front-end person. Fix was less than a day. Dumb as hell- and it won't be the last. Of course, using autofill rests upon the laurels of the user moreso than a checkbox in something designed specifically to NOT have you reuse the same damn password everywhere.

    I've been asked to stop derailing threads. So, stop enticing more-interesting topics!

  • raindog308raindog308 Moderator

    jiggawattz said: I don't see how this is different than email which is generally sold on a subscription model. If you don't pay your G Suite bill on time, your data disappears 30 days later. Even if you host your own email, your VPS and domain are still essentially subscriptions.

    I disagree. Let's put aside the sync part of 1Password as I'm not interested in that. I'm perfectly happy with my safe on Dropbox, and I'd trust their security over AgileBits'.

    • with Gmail, they're providing a service. Servers, network, admin, etc.

    • if Gmail jacks up their rates, I can give them the finger and go over to mxroute. If 1Password jacks up their rates again, I don't have another choice.

    • with traditional software, I get to choose when I pay to upgrade. New version, ok won't be supported in a year or two, but hey it's Christmas and I'd rather live with the old until I get my tax refund, etc. With subscription, you have no choice - you pay now, or you're out.

    • And, you know, it's not like AB raised the rates to give everyone a discount. Cost went up 300% in just a five-year stretch...over my lifetime, thousands of percent.

    Etc.

    I think the subscription model is a healthy model for software that is expected to be actively maintained. Previously, commercial software vendors charged you for an upgrade. Of course, you never had to upgrade but Windows 3.11 won't be very useful for you today.

    I hate subscription software. The people who like it, not surprisingly, are publishers because it's a lot more expensive. That's really the story with subscriptions - it's some hand-waving to cover a price increase.

    Awmusic12635 said: They still very much sell the one time fee version and have said they intend to continue to support it.

    I just can't find that info anywhere. You go to their site, click Pricing, and your only option is $3/mo. I don't see anything in the forums where they're reassuring customers that the old model will stay around.

    If the old model (buy a license, pay for upgrades when/if you need them, host on Dropbox) is staying around, I'm a happy camper. But it looks like they're going in a different direction.

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  • @raindog308 said: [... a bunch of stuff]

    I agree and share your point of view completely. I've purchased software on sale for $15-$30 and had companies switch to a subscription model. At just a few dollars a month it still ends up costing me a lot more. My response is to not sign up and either switch products or code my own solution. I understand the developer's position, but as a consumer I'm resistant to the idea of monthly fees for products.

    If the old model (buy a license, pay for upgrades when/if you need them, host on Dropbox) is staying around, I'm a happy camper. But it looks like they're going in a different direction.

    In looking over AgileBits's marketing material, I get the impression that those who purchased the product(s) are being grandfathered. I see the writing on the wall and would not at all be surprised if in five years there's no alternative but a monthly fee to use their products (sync services aside).

  • jiggawattzjiggawattz Member
    edited March 20

    raindog308 said:

    with Gmail, they're providing a service. Servers, network, admin, etc.

    AgileBits is providing a service: developers, security auditors, website vulnerability monitoring/reporting through Watchtower, etc.

    They might not host anything but they still have developers on payroll working to make sure your product works with latest releases of platforms, browsers and websites.

    Maybe it's not worth $3/mo in your opinion - but I think the Canadians are worth that.

    if Gmail jacks up their rates, I can give them the finger and go over to mxroute. If 1Password jacks up their rates again, I don't have another choice.

    1Password allows you to export your vault in .csv or .txt format for data portability.

    with traditional software, I get to choose when I pay to upgrade. New version, ok won't be supported in a year or two, but hey it's Christmas and I'd rather live with the old until I get my tax refund, etc. With subscription, you have no choice - you pay now, or you're out.

    This is true.

    And, you know, it's not like AB raised the rates to give everyone a discount. Cost went up 300% in just a five-year stretch...over my lifetime, thousands of percent.

    Startups, especially who sell on the app stores, have had a lowball mentality and I think there has been an awakening of selling premium software at premium prices. Password managers are still relatively niche products compared to other things and you need to charge more for niche stuff.

    I hate subscription software. The people who like it, not surprisingly, are publishers because it's a lot more expensive. That's really the story with subscriptions - it's some hand-waving to cover a price increase.

    Commericial software has a capitalist component to it, but the market is competitive and, even though there is no law requiring it, 1Password does allow you to port your vault to a common format.

  • raindog308raindog308 Moderator

    jiggawattz said: AgileBits is providing a service: developers, security auditors, website vulnerability monitoring/reporting through Watchtower, etc.

    Right, but you could say that about anything. By that logic, all software should be subscription-based.

    jiggawattz said: Maybe it's not worth $3/mo in your opinion - but I think the Canadians are worth that.

    And I do not, which is a legitimate point of disagreement. But beyond that, I have a strong dislike to subscription-based services because of increased cost, lock-in, and being straight-jacketed into someone's idea of when I should pay.

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  • jarlandjarland Administrator

    @raindog308 said:

    jiggawattz said: AgileBits is providing a service: developers, security auditors, website vulnerability monitoring/reporting through Watchtower, etc.

    Right, but you could say that about anything. By that logic, all software should be subscription-based.

    I wish. More than enough devs out there making apps and selling them, then abandoning them. Usually justified too because their sales hit a cap and they backed themselves into a corner by not requiring some kind of recurring cost, or at least a pay for upgrade model.

    Software development is one of the most difficult things you'll ever fail at so easily.

  • @jarland said:

    @raindog308 said:

    jiggawattz said: AgileBits is providing a service: developers, security auditors, website vulnerability monitoring/reporting through Watchtower, etc.

    Right, but you could say that about anything. By that logic, all software should be subscription-based.

    I wish. More than enough devs out there making apps and selling them, then abandoning them. Usually justified too because their sales hit a cap and they backed themselves into a corner by not requiring some kind of recurring cost, or at least a pay for upgrade model.

    Nah, the big mistake is that they didn't have a business plan before they started/finished writing the software. It doesn't have to be a subscription that pays for past and future development, but you do at least have to work out what it'll take to maintain a sustainable project. Or maybe it legitimately is a one-off development that solves a specific problem, and is then open sourced to allow tweaking by anybody who needs it.

    I think that's what offends people most about subscriptions: they're sold as a way to keep getting updates, but companies often treat them as installments for previous development work. And people who bought their software have essentially already made those payments. The smart thing to do would be to offer them a substantially cheaper subscription that does only cover future development.

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  • impossiblystupid said: Nah, the big mistake is that they didn't have a business plan before they started

    Are we talking about the tech industry here?

  • jgillichjgillich Member
    edited March 20

    I use pass: https://www.passwordstore.org/

    It integrates with git, and there is a Firefox plugin and a Android app.

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  • Awmusic12635Awmusic12635 Member, Provider

    raindog308 said: I just can't find that info anywhere. You go to their site, click Pricing, and your only option is $3/mo. I don't see anything in the forums where they're reassuring customers that the old model will stay around.

    If the old model (buy a license, pay for upgrades when/if you need them, host on Dropbox) is staying around, I'm a happy camper. But it looks like they're going in a different direction.

    They were pretty active on hackernews when people were asking questions after the subscription was announced. One such example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12376841

    Can buy the time one version here: https://agilebits.com/store/ . The last paid upgrade for the fully owned version was in 2013. The last 3 or so full version upgrades have been free of charge.

    Hope that helps.

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  • ramesh_vishramesh_vish Member
    edited March 20

    I would recommend KeeWeb (https://keeweb.info/). All data is stored on Google drive/Dropbox. There is a web version (https://app.keeweb.info/) and desktop versions. Since the backend file is KeePass compatible, you could sync with an app such as Keepass2Android

    PS: And I forgot to mention, it is all free.

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  • @jiggawattz said:

    impossiblystupid said: Nah, the big mistake is that they didn't have a business plan before they started

    Are we talking about the tech industry here?

    Heh. Happens in a lot of industries where people are spending money before they have a single customer. Capitalism needs better checks and balances.

    I am Impossibly Stupid. Hailed by @jarland as an "incessantly belligerent buffoon." Available for parties. Book early to avoid disappointment.

  • carcosacarcosa Member

    What about Devolutions Password Vault manager, they have a free version and it also has apps for android and IOS https://password.devolutions.net/Home/Features

    $59 to buy a license

  • TarZZ92TarZZ92 Member

    roboform

    I AM BACK :) Working Windows Server 2012 R2 on 6GB! Beat that!

  • Been using keepass for many years. Still do. I don't want my entire password database floating around out there, even if it is encrypted.

  • bsdguybsdguy Member

    I heard all the arguments about, oh needing expensive developers, and about all that oh so expensive infrastructure ... and I call it bullshit.

    Besides the fact that it escapes my understanding why anyone would actually want and pay for having his passwords stored at some internet service, here's what I think:

    The core of such a service consists of three elements:

    • server software which is pretty much written once and that's about it. One might play funny design update games with the front-end but those are cheap. web-"developers" are a dime a dozen and the front-end work is simple.

    • client side the core of which is also written one and that's about it. Again, one might add this or that fancy gadget later but that's no big thing.

    • server (as in "hosting") What's the big deal? One can host millions and millions of password/passphrase/keys of millions of customers on a single server. Let's add 2 more for resilience and that's about it. One could sell secure password store services at 1 cent per year and still earn money on it as far as the hosting concerned.

    That's why it's important to see the software side and there in particular one decisive factor: You DO NOT the fuck "update" that kind of software. I happen to work in that field and I'll repeat: You want to get that kind of software right once - and then not muck with it unless there was reason of major importance, say intel dropping dead plus http 3 becoming commonplace.

    As for "but there are so many browsers and interfaces and ..." - Fuck it. The answer is "use standard html plus css". Well noted, I'm not talking about the sales site, which might be jumping and dancing and whatnot. But as for the core interface the customer will actually welcome a simple, clean, standard interface.

    That said, I wouldn't trust any internet company with all my sensitive stuff. Nor would I trust them to properly encrypt and safekeep everything. But for those who do that I tell you that anything above 10$/year is a rip off.

    My favourite prime number is 42. - In memory of WSS: "Our house. In the middle of our street. That's madness! Madness, I tell you!"

  • Awmusic12635Awmusic12635 Member, Provider
    edited March 21

    bsdguy said: That said, I wouldn't trust any internet company with all my sensitive stuff. Nor would I trust them to properly encrypt and safekeep everything. But for those who do that I tell you that anything above 10$/year is a rip off.

    You don't trust a company, and yet you wouldn't pay more than $10 a year for such a service that does it properly? Perhaps your budget doesn't align with your security and support expectations.

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  • bsdguybsdguy Member

    @Awmusic12635 said:

    bsdguy said: That said, I wouldn't trust any internet company with all my sensitive stuff. Nor would I trust them to properly encrypt and safekeep everything. But for those who do that I tell you that anything above 10$/year is a rip off.

    You don't trust a company, and yet you wouldn't pay more than $10 a year for such a service that does it properly? Perhaps your budget doesn't align with your security and support expectations.

    Wow, an ad hominem and so quickly.

    What exactly is your professional background and expertise to judge that? I guess none, nada, zilch.

    You see, I actually work in the field, I actually do design secure systems and software, I do write safe code, every line of which runs through static analysis with multiple sat/smt backends. And btw. most of my work is for networks and servers. And I happen to know the cost structure of both development and of providing internet services.

    That said, I'm a mere mortal and there are still many, many things I don't know. So I might well be wrong in what I said here. But then, that's the nature of a forum: discussions. A simple ad hominem, however, will certainly have one effect only and that is you looking stupid.

    My favourite prime number is 42. - In memory of WSS: "Our house. In the middle of our street. That's madness! Madness, I tell you!"

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