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lightweight mail server
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lightweight mail server

What do you use as a lightweight mali server for outgoing e-mails only
I need a Mail Server For my Forum to send and receive emails.

So it should:

be lightweight and small in size
simple to configure
secure
support SMTP,( IMAP POP3 is optional)
install clean
«1

Comments

  • What's you monthly volume? Did you consider using any of the transactional mail providers out there?

  • It kind of doesn't work that way any more. Spam has destroyed email to the point where it takes a lot of attention to run a mail server, both for inbound spam filtering and outbound abuse prevention. Much as I like self-hosting, your life will be easier with a hosted service.

    Thanked by 2WSS jar

    #lexit spread the word.

  • i tryed to use Gmail as email server withVbulletin

    but i allways get

    PHP User Warning: 530 Unexpected response from SMTP server during FROM address transmission in ..../includes/class_mail.php on line 716

  • eraser said: i tryed to use Gmail as email server withVbulletin

    Did you try SendGrid or MailGun?

  • niknik Member, Provider

    @eraser said:
    i tryed to use Gmail as email server withVbulletin

    but i allways get

    PHP User Warning: 530 Unexpected response from SMTP server during FROM address transmission in ..../includes/class_mail.php on line 716

    I think gmail has a limit. You are better of using something like Postmark if time-to-inbox and a high delivery rate is important for you.

    Nodion – High Performance Cloud Hosting in Frankfurt, DE

  • @MrKaruppu
    well

    Both are unknown to me Which one can you recommend?

  • Both are good. You can start with SendGrid. They provide 10000 outgoing free emails per month.

    If you need inbound email as well, you can use MailGun.

    MXRoute is worth considering if you want paid emails.

    Thanked by 1jar
  • erasereraser Member
    edited February 2017

    thank you

    @MrKaruppu You probably mean MailGun?

    on SendGrid i found only 40,000 email plan, free for 30 days

    Is there a guide how to configure Mailgun With CloudFlare?

    thanks

  • MrKaruppuMrKaruppu Member
    edited February 2017

    eraser said: on SendGrid i found only 40,000 email plan, free for 30 days

    I think SendGrid has stopped the free tier plan. May be because of abuse. You can configure mailgun with Cloudflare. Just point the MX records to MailGun's servers.

    -- https://www.lowendtalk.com/discussion/19043/how-to-set-up-email-forwarding-for-your-domain-using-mailgun

    -- https://www.chrisanthropic.com/blog/2014/mail-forwarding-with-mailgun-and-cloudflare/

  • @willie said:
    It kind of doesn't work that way any more. Spam has destroyed email to the point where it takes a lot of attention to run a mail server, both for inbound spam filtering and outbound abuse prevention.

    That's just not true. Spam is a solved problem. I do zero inbound filtering, and there are a limited number of accounts that are authorized to send outgoing mail. It takes very little extra attention to deal with abuse specifically related to SMTP. HTTP and SSH are much greater concerns.

    What is true is that you're going to have some (minor) deliverability issues until you establish a reputation. If the OP is looking to validate emails associated with forum accounts, that might be an issue.

    Much as I like self-hosting, your life will be easier with a hosted service.

    That's also true for just about any service. Nobody with two neurons to rub together goes with a VPS because they expect it to be easier than shared hosting.

    I am Impossibly Stupid. Hailed by @jarland as an "incessantly belligerent buffoon." Available for parties. Book early to avoid disappointment.

  • I use Mailgun on a community forum and quite happy so far.

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Moderator
    edited February 2017

    impossiblystupid said: Spam is a solved problem. I do zero inbound filtering,

    Emails known only to you don't count. Post a few of those email addresses all over the web and let us know if your problem remains solved.

    Thanked by 3jar yomero bugrakoc

    For LET support, please visit the support desk.

  • Maybe opensmtpd?

    Thanked by 2WSS flatland_spider
  • jarjar Provider
    edited February 2017

    @impossiblystupid said:
    Spam is a solved problem.

    image

    Thanked by 2dedicados vimalware

    MagicSpam blackmails providers into buying their software, and ServerHub is a professional spam organization.

  • edited February 2017

    Laughing doesn't make it any less true. If you refuse to adopt the solutions (or choose to profit from the problem), that's on you, @jarland. As a mail provider, you should get with the program.

    I was getting 5000 spam/day by the time I decided to stop using spamcop.net and follow a real anti-spam process. Now I get maybe 1 message a day that's spammy (usually a crap job offer sent to a job board account). I haven't seen what most people think of as "normal" spam in well over a decade.

    I am Impossibly Stupid. Hailed by @jarland as an "incessantly belligerent buffoon." Available for parties. Book early to avoid disappointment.

  • @raindog308 said:
    Emails known only to you don't count. Post a few of those email addresses all over the web and let us know if your problem remains solved.

    All my email addresses on the web are not only "all over", they are clickable. Did you not even bother to visit my blog? As a bonus, here's a direct link to a spam spidering experiment that I did.

    I am Impossibly Stupid. Hailed by @jarland as an "incessantly belligerent buffoon." Available for parties. Book early to avoid disappointment.

  • I, too, recommend OpenSMTPd. It's trivial to setup and manage- however, you WILL spend time ensuring your IP space is clean, because some asshole will flag your automated messages as spam.

    Of course, if you wanted to be a huge wanker, you could easily make a handful of gmail accounts, and rotate through them using sSMTP if you are having issues with volume. I don't suggest doing this, since they'll eventually notice and block you.

    Thanked by 2flatland_spider sin
  • jarjar Provider
    edited February 2017

    @impossiblystupid said:
    Laughing doesn't make it any less true. If you refuse to adopt the solutions (or choose to profit from the problem), that's on you, @jarland. As a mail provider, you should get with the program.

    I was getting 5000 spam/day by the time I decided to stop using spamcop.net and follow a real anti-spam process. Now I get maybe 1 message a day that's spammy (usually a crap job offer sent to a job board account). I haven't seen what most people think of as "normal" spam in well over a decade.

    So you're accusing me of profiting from spam by not alienating my customers by forcing them into workflows that only work for you in your tiny little single domain self hosted bubble? Alright, listen here you little prick. Admin gloves off, it's just me here.

    You can be a smug asshole all you want, it's your most marketable skill on LET recently for some reason. You've abandoned intellectual discourse for "I need to insult people and pretend to be smarter than everyone to feel good about myself." The idea that you've "solved" spam and that everyone else is stupid or profiting from spam is hilarious. We all know your process, firewall off the internet and use disposable addresses for everything. Call it an over simplification but that's pretty much it. That's not compatible with anywhere near everyone's needs. But what do I know, I just run mail servers, I'm not a fucking pseudo-intellectual know-it-all neckbeard who fixed one problem in one single user instance and declares himself the universal authority on the problem.

    You have absolutely no idea what it's like to manage anything email related at scale. Your cute little toy servers for you own mail do not give you the godlike insight over the entirety of what other people face that you think it does. Not even mxroute gives me that, but it sure gives me a lot more sample data than your little personal email. HostGator did, however, give me godlike insight into spam problems.

    Literally you, should be your new avatar. For every time you pop in a thread and misinform people about things for the sole purpose of trying to make others look stupid and elevate yourself smugly:

    image

    I sell packages every day, I don't even need to market here, I'm just feeling like calling out your smug bullshit lately where you argue endlessly with people in the voice of the "know it all IT guy" just to elevate yourself at the cost of obfuscating discussion and confusing members who are asking for help.

    Now I look forward to your next wall of text where you smugly attempt, again, to elevate yourself as the single authority for issues which you have extremely limited experience with. Start an email host and compete with me so I can buy service and berate you here daily for your failure to provide a service that actually works for other people or doesn't end up solving what you claim is "solved."

    It's so easy to pretend to be perfect when you don't actually do anything but foam at the mouth.

    MagicSpam blackmails providers into buying their software, and ServerHub is a professional spam organization.

  • oneilonlineoneilonline Member, Provider

    Postfix on a VPS will be cheaper than any email service, and fits your requirements.

  • @impossiblystupid, I got curious and decided to check out your blog. I found it very confusing to navigate and search for information I came for. Maybe that's just me. Clicked on a link to send you email and saw that you generate address on the fly based on factors like topic and sender's IP. That is a novel and intriguing approach but not something particularly fit for my personal or business purposes. It would be rather cumbersome to say over phone or print in paper medium, if not impossible per se. If I misunderstood your solution please provide a link for your blogpost or something.

    @jarland, I have a question. Inside that person's mouth, below the upper lip - is it two teeth, a flicking tongue or a pair of balls? You keep me at the edge of my seat in anticipation. Thank you in advance.

  • jarjar Provider

    @Yura said:
    @jarland, I have a question. Inside that person's mouth, below the upper lip - is it two teeth, a flicking tongue or a pair of balls? You keep me at the edge of my seat in anticipation. Thank you in advance.

    I think it's two teeth on top and full teeth on bottom.

    MagicSpam blackmails providers into buying their software, and ServerHub is a professional spam organization.

  • @jarland said:

    @Yura said:
    @jarland, I have a question. Inside that person's mouth, below the upper lip - is it two teeth, a flicking tongue or a pair of balls? You keep me at the edge of my seat in anticipation. Thank you in advance.

    I think it's two teeth on top and full teeth on bottom.

    I can fully agree with you on the "Two Teeth" Proposal #17 if you are willing to accept that below them is a rather meaty full lower lip. "Full Teeth On Bottom" is rather unacceptable and I hope you will come to the same conclusion.

    Thanked by 3jar WSS bugrakoc
  • jarjar Provider

    @Yura said:

    @jarland said:

    @Yura said:
    @jarland, I have a question. Inside that person's mouth, below the upper lip - is it two teeth, a flicking tongue or a pair of balls? You keep me at the edge of my seat in anticipation. Thank you in advance.

    I think it's two teeth on top and full teeth on bottom.

    I can fully agree with you on the "Two Teeth" Proposal #17 if you are willing to accept that below them is a rather meaty full lower lip. "Full Teeth On Bottom" is rather unacceptable and I hope you will come to the same conclusion.

    It's plausible but now I'm wondering what happened to his top lip...

    Thanked by 1Yura

    MagicSpam blackmails providers into buying their software, and ServerHub is a professional spam organization.

  • WSSWSS Member
    edited February 2017

    Also, his ear is an upside-down nutsack. The penis is removed as he is a UNIX.

    Thanked by 2jar Yura
  • @jarland said:

    @Yura said:

    @jarland said:

    I can fully agree with you on the "Two Teeth" Proposal #17 if you are willing to accept that below them is a rather meaty full lower lip. "Full Teeth On Bottom" is rather unacceptable and I hope you will come to the same conclusion.

    It's plausible but now I'm wondering what happened to his top lip...

    Without going into macabre and morbid details, it would suffice to say that an alien lifeform (conveniently disguised as a nose) consumed his upper lip. It lead to unsightly exposure of a rather sad state of dentistry in the Neckbeardstan.

    @WSS said:
    Also, his ear is an upside-down nutsack.

    Giving your universally recognized reputation as an expert in "everything weird and then some", I simply nod to your motion and scratch that hypothesis of "tunnell piercing ripped out by an 8 years old bully" off the list. We will never mention that again.

  • @impossiblystupid spam is a solved problem? Yeah right... Now I know where does your username come from...

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Moderator

    sin said: Maybe opensmtpd?

    I like opensmtpd and find it the easiest to setup. Then again, postfix is also pretty easy to setup. So is exim4.

    Heck, all you need to do for either postfix or exim4 is install the apt and then dpkg-reconfigure and you're pretty much done...

    ...as far as the MTA. But you still need anti-virus, anti-spam, etc.

    Thanked by 2WSS sin

    For LET support, please visit the support desk.

  • Mailcow

    How to clean up a questionable reputation: throw the kids some BF/CM offers.

  • @raindog308 said:
    Heck, all you need to do for either postfix or exim4 is install the apt and then dpkg-reconfigure and you're pretty much done...

    Do you remember the old days of needing m4 and understanding the crap that is sendmail.cf? Hell- remember when qmail was a good idea? I do! I went Postfix and never went back (until OpenSMTPd, when I finally jumped ship)

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Moderator

    WSS said: Do you remember the old days of needing m4 and understanding the crap that is sendmail.cf?

    You. Bastard.

    m4 had just reached the outer limits of my long-term memory and now you've pushed it back front and center. Now I'll never forget it.

    Yeah, I did sendmail, then postfix, then opensmtpd.

    Thanked by 1WSS

    For LET support, please visit the support desk.

  • @raindog308 said:

    WSS said: Do you remember the old days of needing m4 and understanding the crap that is sendmail.cf?

    You. Bastard.

    m4 had just reached the outer limits of my long-term memory and now you've pushed it back front and center. Now I'll never forget it.

    Yeah, I did sendmail, then postfix, then opensmtpd.

    I use sendmail on one of my servers. :-) Yeah, the configuration files look forbidding, but the default settings are sensible, and there's a lot of info around if you need to do something unusual.

    Nevertheless, starting from scratch, I would choose postfix. :-) (Isn't opensmtpd more of an OpenBSD thing?)

    "Linux will run happily with only 4 MB of RAM, including all of the bells and whistles such as the X Window System, Emacs, and so on." (M. Welsh & L. Kaufman, Running Linux, 2e, 1996, p. 32)

  • eraser said: What do you use as a lightweight mali server for outgoing e-mails only I need a Mail Server For my Forum to send and receive emails.

    Which is it going to be: "outgoing e-mails only" or "send and receive emails"?

  • CamCam Member, Provider

    Grab a vps and install Mail-in-a-Box There's a video on their website with an install guide.

  • WSSWSS Member
    edited February 2017

    @angstrom said:
    I use sendmail on one of my servers. :-) Yeah, the configuration files look forbidding, but the default settings are sensible, and there's a lot of info around if you need to do something unusual.

    Nevertheless, starting from scratch, I would choose postfix. :-) (Isn't opensmtpd more of an OpenBSD thing?)

    My whole problem with sendmail is that it's sendmail. It's difficult to maintain, and even with privilege separation, it's still regarded as one of the most commonly breached bits of software. I had to maintain it in the 90s, and I'll never, ever, ever forgive Eric for creating it. That said, do the most recent incarnations still come with sample UUCP configs?

    OpenSMTPd started there, but much like OpenSSH, it's grown outside of that community. I like many of the ideals which came from Theoland, but OpenBSD's "httpd" completely eludes me- a stripped down Apache? Really? What's the point?

    I actually went back to Postfix for a bit because it was familiar, but I spent about a week learning how to care and feed OpenSMTPd, and now I don't really care for how annoying Postfix can be to (initially) configure. What a time we live in!

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Moderator
    edited February 2017

    angstrom said: Isn't opensmtpd more of an OpenBSD thing?

    No, it's Linux as well. It's in jessie-backports, rpm, etc. But it was started by the OpenBSD project, yes...like openssh, openntpd, openbgpd, etc. But not openssl!

    Thanked by 2angstrom marrco

    For LET support, please visit the support desk.

  • @WSS said:

    @angstrom said:
    I use sendmail on one of my servers. :-) Yeah, the configuration files look forbidding, but the default settings are sensible, and there's a lot of info around if you need to do something unusual.

    Nevertheless, starting from scratch, I would choose postfix. :-) (Isn't opensmtpd more of an OpenBSD thing?)

    My whole problem with sendmail is that it's sendmail. It's difficult to maintain, and even with privilege separation, it's still regarded as one of the most commonly breached bits of software. I had to maintain it in the 90s, and I'll never, ever, ever forgive Eric for creating it. That said, do the most recent incarnations still come with sample UUCP configs?

    OpenSMTPd started there, but much like OpenSSH, it's grown outside of that community. I like many of the ideals which came from Theoland, but OpenBSD's "httpd" completely eludes me- a stripped down Apache? Really? What's the point?

    I actually went back to Postfix for a bit because it was familiar, but I spent about a week learning how to care and feed OpenSMTPd, and now I don't really care for how annoying Postfix can be to (initially) configure. What a time we live in!

    If one needs UUCP (not that I do!), sendmail is the only game in town. :-)

    Unfortunately (but understandably!), bad experiences with sendmail in the 90s scared a lot of people away from ever using sendmail again. But the current version is robust and works well.

    I'll keep an eye on opensmtpd, but I wonder how many really use it outside of OpenBSD ...

    Thanked by 1WSS

    "Linux will run happily with only 4 MB of RAM, including all of the bells and whistles such as the X Window System, Emacs, and so on." (M. Welsh & L. Kaufman, Running Linux, 2e, 1996, p. 32)

  • Well, at least OpenBSD stopped using and patching Apache 1.3! (Did I get the version right?)

    "Linux will run happily with only 4 MB of RAM, including all of the bells and whistles such as the X Window System, Emacs, and so on." (M. Welsh & L. Kaufman, Running Linux, 2e, 1996, p. 32)

  • WSSWSS Member
    edited February 2017

    @raindog308 said:

    angstrom said: Isn't opensmtpd more of an OpenBSD thing?

    No, it's Linux as well. It's in jessie-backports, rpm, etc. But it was started by the OpenBSD project, yes...like openssh, openntpd, openbgpd, etc. But not openssl!

    In 2009, after frustrations with the original OpenSSL API, Marco Peereboom, an OpenBSD developer at the time, forked the original API by creating Agglomerated SSL (assl), which reuses OpenSSL API under the hood, but provides a much simpler external interface.[40]

    LibreSSL
    In the wake of Heartbleed, members of the OpenBSD project forked OpenSSL starting with the 1.0.1g branch, to create a project named LibreSSL.

    Where's Kevin Bacon fit into this?

    @angstrom said:

    I'll keep an eye on opensmtpd, but I wonder how many really use it outside of OpenBSD ...

    People who don't have 10 hours a day to watch their mailer-daemon? Postfix has a whole decade on this, but it's being adopted by many who just want to try something different- and find that they like it. :)

    Thanked by 1angstrom
  • Nowadays I just use ssmtp with sendgrid free but that's because I only need to send notifications from my servers.

  • @jarland said:
    Yeah okay. You go ahead and tell me how that works without demanding that everyone stop using email in the way that they prefer or need to for their businesses, that completely resolves spam.

    I could, but clearly you're not really willing to listen. You've gotten into the habit of just attacking with personal insults for some reason. If you ever sincerely want to make your email work better, just let me know.

    You have absolutely no idea what it's like to manage anything email related at scale.

    Is that a fact? How is it you came to know that about me?

    HostGator did, however, give me godlike insight into spam problems.

    Really? So what would you say is the #1 way spammers get email addresses these days? What would you say is the best way to prevent that?

    I sell packages every day, I don't even need to market here, I'm just feeling like calling out your smug bullshit lately where you argue endlessly with people in the voice of the "know it all IT guy" just to elevate yourself at the cost of obfuscating discussion and confusing members who are asking for help.

    I'm just telling people what I do. It is you who keeps trying to build straw men out of it for some reason. I'm not going to pretend I know why that is. Projection, maybe? Is . . . is the neckbeard really . . . you? :-)

    @Yura said:
    Clicked on a link to send you email and saw that you generate address on the fly based on factors like topic and sender's IP. That is a novel and intriguing approach but not something particularly fit for my personal or business purposes. It would be rather cumbersome to say over phone or print in paper medium, if not impossible per se. If I misunderstood your solution please provide a link for your blogpost or something.

    There's no specific link because there's no product I'm selling. And there's no single solution to the problem. Yes, I generate addresses one way for the web, but I do different things in order to give an address over the phone or put on business cards. I have no idea what particular technique might or might not work for your particular needs.

    But that doesn't mean spam isn't a solved problem: only use an address that you can track the source and then dispose of when a spammer gets ahold of it. Everything stems from that. Not sure why some people get hostile when they hear it.

    I am Impossibly Stupid. Hailed by @jarland as an "incessantly belligerent buffoon." Available for parties. Book early to avoid disappointment.

  • jarjar Provider
    edited February 2017

    @impossiblystupid said:
    I could, but clearly you're not really willing to listen. You've gotten into the habit of just attacking with personal insults for some reason. If you ever sincerely want to make your email work better, just let me know.

    No that's you. Spam is observably and objectively NOT a solved problem. You solved it in a bubble for yourself because you were able to adopt a non-standard workflow that is not compatible with everyone's needs. The smugness required to then insult me by declaring that I am profiting from spam by not fucking over my clients and forcing them into your shitty workflow that force them to leave for another service that doesn't require such a hand holding nanny action is the reason I'm calling you a smug prick. You did that, I'm merely calling you out because I'm tired of you.

    Is that a fact? How is it you came to know that about me?

    Easily. If you've run email hosting services for thousands or more clients then you would have been fired for having unreasonable expectations of others that drive them to alternative services. People are more okay with spam than changing their lifestyle. You'd know that if you ever worked in this market as a provider.

    Really? So what would you say is the #1 way spammers get email addresses these days? What would you say is the best way to prevent that?

    Not my fucking problem. I don't get to tell customers where to give out their addresses or how to manage them. Not if I want customers. If I tried, rest assured they would choose a new provider that didn't. Putting myself out of business because I smugly uphold standards that no one wants is insanity. That's always the way you think though. Everyone in the world is an incompetent prick but you because you have all the answers that no one wants to the problems you've never dealt with at scale.

    I'm just telling people what I do. It is you who keeps trying to build straw men out of it for some reason. I'm not going to pretend I know why that is. Projection, maybe? Is . . . is the neckbeard really . . . you? :-)

    No, you're accusing me of profiting from spam by not alienating my customers you smug prick. You're a miserable human being and your presence makes me enjoy this community less. If you didn't devolve into insults right away then everything would be sunshine and rainbows, but you do and I'm tired enough of it that I'm giving you a taste of it back.

    But that doesn't mean spam isn't a solved problem: only use an address that you can track the source and then dispose of when a spammer gets ahold of it. Everything stems from that. Not sure why some people get hostile when they hear it.

    BECAUSE THAT DOESNT WORK FOR EVERYONE YOU IDIOT. You insult people for not doing it your way when your way doesn't work for everyone and then you declare everyone else either incompetent or malicious for not bending the world to fit your little one user sandbox. It's annoying, it adds very little to discussion, and it makes you a smug prick. I'm insulting you back, not leading it.

    Thanked by 2doughmanes bugrakoc

    MagicSpam blackmails providers into buying their software, and ServerHub is a professional spam organization.

  • But that doesn't mean spam isn't a solved problem: only use an address that you can track the source and then dispose of when a spammer gets ahold of it. Everything stems from that. Not sure why some people get hostile when they hear it.

    Doesn't pass the mom/grandma test.

    How to clean up a questionable reputation: throw the kids some BF/CM offers.

  • @doughmanes said:

    But that doesn't mean spam isn't a solved problem: only use an address that you can track the source and then dispose of when a spammer gets ahold of it. Everything stems from that. Not sure why some people get hostile when they hear it.

    Doesn't pass the mom/grandma test.

    If only there was a temporary - email organization

  • YuraYura Member
    edited February 2017

    @impossiblystupid said:

    @Yura said:
    Clicked on a link to send you email and saw that you generate address on the fly based on factors like topic and sender's IP. That is a novel and intriguing approach but not something particularly fit for my personal or business purposes. It would be rather cumbersome to say over phone or print in paper medium, if not impossible per se. If I misunderstood your solution please provide a link for your blogpost or something.

    There's no specific link because there's no product I'm selling. And there's no single solution to the problem. Yes, I generate addresses one way for the web, but I do different things in order to give an address over the phone or put on business cards. I have no idea what particular technique might or might not work for your particular needs.

    But that doesn't mean spam isn't a solved problem: only use an address that you can track the source and then dispose of when a spammer gets ahold of it. Everything stems from that. Not sure why some people get hostile when they hear it.

    There are threats out there that are far more prioritized than spammers and for those particular threat models I do implement and use compartmentalization and source tracking. I'm not hostile and this is not something I can't utilize. Because I do.

    Regardless, this is not a solution for spam. You add administration overhead and mental burden for minimal gains whatsoever. When you destroy email address which got spam, you treat burns with amputation - the damage is done already, you spent your resources on looking at and disposing spam letters, then replace email if needed.

    What is really dissapointing is how vocal you are about "everyone should get on" with solved spam, hinting at your blog and "process", yet when asked directly - avoid answering simple questions so I and others could solve this problem too. Which was a noble leitmotif of your posts. So far no solution. Not for phone, not for business cards, not for the moment when those get spam compromised too. Because you can't give individual email address for each of your clients or prospects. Not to forget how much fun it is for people to remember and recognize that incomprehensible string in their mailbox either.

    Your intention is not to educate or to help. You are not selling a product because you have no useful solution for real people's problem. So far, you sell your long winded posts about nothing in particular, but your very own self persona.

    Thanked by 4WSS jar M66B lazyt
  • @jarland said:
    The smugness required to then insult me by declaring that I am profiting from spam

    I did no such thing. I merely stated that many people who make a big deal about being "spam fighters" do seem to profit from spam and have not caused a drop in the abuse. I have no idea what your personal motivations are, but I can say that it doesn't reflect well on you when you choose to be hostile in what should be a fairly dry discussion about alternative anti-spam techniques. Ones that can stop the flow of spam.

    It is also disingenuous (to say the least) when you go back and edit your posts to be even more slanted and hostile. There is no reason that my simple posts should be eliciting this behavior from you. Whatever the actual source of your troubles are, you gain nothing by picking me as a target.

    People are more okay with spam than changing their lifestyle. You'd know that if you ever worked in this market as a provider.

    I do know that. But my point is that people will change if providers give them the tools they need to make the change easier, and are willing to explain the benefits of the change. You could be that innovative provider, but instead you decided to attack me for even daring to suggest it.

    Really? So what would you say is the #1 way spammers get email addresses these days? What would you say is the best way to prevent that?

    Not my fucking problem.

    Strange answer from someone who claims they have "godlike insight". But, seriously, step back from your misguided anger for a second and actually think about the spam problem. The core of the disease is spammers getting access to your contact info. Everything after that is just treating symptoms.

    I don't get to tell customers where to give out their addresses or how to manage them.

    Providers like you could at least make it an easier option for them.

    That's always the way you think though. Everyone in the world is an incompetent prick but you because you have all the answers that no one wants to the problems you've never dealt with at scale.

    Claims to read my mind really do come off as projection . . .

    No, you're accusing me of profiting from spam by not alienating my customers you smug prick. You're a miserable human being and your presence makes me enjoy this community less. If you didn't devolve into insults right away then everything would be sunshine and rainbows, but you do and I'm tired enough of it that I'm giving you a taste of it back.

    Where are the insults in what I've written? Now look at what you're writing.

    But that doesn't mean spam isn't a solved problem: only use an address that you can track the source and then dispose of when a spammer gets ahold of it. Everything stems from that. Not sure why some people get hostile when they hear it.

    BECAUSE THAT DOESNT WORK FOR EVERYONE YOU IDIOT.

    I never said it did. I said it was a solved problem. A lot of things are solved problem, with complex and (for some) unworkable solutions. Want to live for 1000 years? It's a solved problem, so long as you can accelerate to a large fraction of the speed of light. Spam is a solved problem with an easily attained solution, which could be made even easier. Screaming at me doesn't help anyone.

    I'm insulting you back, not leading it.

    So you say. So you say.

    I am Impossibly Stupid. Hailed by @jarland as an "incessantly belligerent buffoon." Available for parties. Book early to avoid disappointment.

  • jarjar Provider
    edited February 2017

    impossiblystupid said: I did no such thing. I merely stated that many people who make a big deal about being "spam fighters" do seem to profit from spam and have not caused a drop in the abuse.

    So now you're a liar too.

    impossiblystupid said: If you refuse to adopt the solutions (or choose to profit from the problem), that's on you, @jarland. As a mail provider, you should get with the program.

    So when you ask...

    impossiblystupid said: Where are the insults in what I've written?

    Just try reading your own words.

    This is exactly why I've grown tired of you. Over the top suggestion that you, the great master of the universe, have solved the great problem. It is no longer a problem. The only thing that remains is that everyone else is too blind to see your genius. Then you accuse others of having malicious intent ("choose to profit from the problem") for not following your lead.

    Keep trying to talk your way out of it. It's a smug self-righteous thing to say and I, for one, am tired of it. You could just contribute but no, you've gotta talk down to everyone.

    impossiblystupid said: Spam is a solved problem with an easily attained solution, which could be made even easier

    Yeah, if only everyone would just quit using email in the way that they do and adopt your way of using it. Dear lord you think highly of yourself.

    It kind of reminds me of people who work at computer repair shops in small towns. After they grow used to being the local genius they start to think really highly of their own abilities. Then later on they find themselves actually talking with other nerds, many of whom have actually dealt with the things they have at much larger scale, and they continue to talk in a smug and self-righteous manner about their skills because they're used to bragging to people who aren't as intelligent as them. These people were a bit more common a little over a decade ago, back before everyone knew how to google. You still run into some every now and then. I remember one here that tried to sell the world's best DDOS protection, and then there was Jonny who thought he was brilliant because he was above average in his own little isolated world.

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    MagicSpam blackmails providers into buying their software, and ServerHub is a professional spam organization.

  • I prefer to fry spam after licking all of the gelatinous ooze from it. It still tastes awful, but somewhat less so.

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  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Moderator

    impossiblystupid said: I never said it did. I said it was a solved problem. A lot of things are solved problem, with complex and (for some) unworkable solutions. Want to live for 1000 years? It's a solved problem, so long as you can accelerate to a large fraction of the speed of light.

    This is mere sophistry, or at worst, backtracking.

    When you say "solved problem" the connotation is "workable solution" not "theoretical but practically impossible". Otherwise, if we have infinite resources, time, technology, and inspiration at our disposal, there are no problems. Indeed, solving problems becomes a solved problem.

    For LET support, please visit the support desk.

  • @doughmanes said:
    Doesn't pass the mom/grandma test.

    That is true. That's why it would mainly fall on mail providers to give non-technical users better tools. There are many great technologies that don't reach critical mass until some critical shift makes people go "Of course that's how you should do it!" For example, compare every mobile web browser from before the iPhone to after it; night and day.

    @Yura said:
    Regardless, this is not a solution for spam. You add administration overhead and mental burden for minimal gains whatsoever.

    The main overhead is due to lack of general support for such a solution. That's why a provider offering value-added tools would go a long way. It's like 2FA; you'll have a lot more success implementing it if you don't have to start by rewriting everything from scratch yourself.

    And it's not like there is zero overhead for all the other anti-spam "solutions" out there. Blacklists don't maintain themselves. Filters don't magically run with zero disk, CPU, and network usage.

    When you destroy email address which got spam, you treat burns with amputation - the damage is done already, you spent your resources on looking at and disposing spam letters, then replace email if needed.

    Again, I was getting 5000 spam/day over 10 years ago. I shutter to think about the "resources" that I'd be spending today if I hadn't sought a different solution. And I think you overestimate the burden of dealing with what are now trivial amounts of spam. Especially when the system is built to identify the exact channels that have been compromised. It's more like cell-level genetic engineering than crude amputation. Which gets back to why better tools would open it up to more people.

    What is really dissapointing is how vocal you are about "everyone should get on" with solved spam, hinting at your blog and "process", yet when asked directly - avoid answering simple questions so I and others could solve this problem too.

    Keep in mind I've been doing it this way for over a decade. I really have no idea what extra information or motivation someone needs these day to change their thinking when it comes to email.

    So far no solution. Not for phone, not for business cards, not for the moment when those get spam compromised too.

    As I said, there is not one solution. I have no idea what sort of approach you would find acceptable for a "public" email like business cards. If you want to see what I do for a similar use case, look at my domain registration.

    One thing I've done for business cards is print up specific sets for conferences I'm attending, which ties the event to a specific email. Any leads can thus be tied to that source, are increasingly less likely to be used legitimately as time goes on, and highly unlikely to be spammed in the first place. Conversions transition to a less temporary email contact.

    Because you can't give individual email address for each of your clients or prospects.

    Actually, I can and do. For clients, at least. For prospects, I find it's not worth the bother (it would be if I had better tools :-). How far you take it depends on your specific goals. In 2005 I started with a much more modest process than I use today (I simply went from a completely generic [email protected] to a trackable [email protected]). And the vast majority of the emails I handed out back then are still in use today.

    Not to forget how much fun it is for people to remember and recognize that incomprehensible string in their mailbox either.

    I'm not sure what you're talking about. Every email client I use shows primarily the person's name, not their associated email address. It's like having a phone number with an extension; you add it to your contacts manager and promptly forget all of it completely.

    Your intention is not to educate or to help. You are not selling a product because you have no useful solution for real people's problem.

    What do you need to know that isn't made clear by me pointing to specific usage examples? I'm honestly have no idea where you're starting from or where you're looking to go.

    I am Impossibly Stupid. Hailed by @jarland as an "incessantly belligerent buffoon." Available for parties. Book early to avoid disappointment.

  • jarjar Provider
    edited February 2017

    impossiblystupid said: That is true. That's why it would mainly fall on mail providers to give non-technical users better tools. There are many great technologies that don't reach critical mass until some critical shift makes people go "Of course that's how you should do it!" For example, compare every mobile web browser from before the iPhone to after it; night and day.

    This contradicts what was disagreed with here. I think you're venturing into a secondary conversation and forgetting that it stems from this:

    image

    Is it a "solved problem" or is it a problem that you propose you have one potential solution to that works in certain use cases? Because it seems like you're backtracking now to say that it's not a fully solved problem, when the whole reason you were engaged on the topic was for posting something that countered references to spam with an absolute suggestion that it is a "solved problem" and that it is "not true" that it is a problem. But now you say it is a problem, because it's not a finalized solution with all tools available to assist in easing regular users into it. A "solved problem" is a problem placed in the "solved" pile, which means you move on from it and no longer consider it a problem. Otherwise it's not solved.

    You're basically defending your position as correct by admitting that your statement was not correct. This isn't coherent thought.

    If you tell people that it's not a problem, that considering it a problem is "not true" because it is "solved" then you should have this solution ready to place in the hand of the average user or else you're spreading misinformation and confusing users who are asking for help. In such a case, wouldn't it be more appropriate to simply say "I have a workflow that can eliminate this problem if it doesn't conflict with your needs." If you want to educate, that is better than confusing people by making technically inaccurate statements in counter to people who are offering solid advice.

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    MagicSpam blackmails providers into buying their software, and ServerHub is a professional spam organization.

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