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Liquid sky... how do they do it?
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Liquid sky... how do they do it?

according to this article: http://venturebeat.com/2016/08/17/liquidsky-aims-to-revive-cloud-gaming-with-modernized-service/

LiquidSky uses one Nvidia graphics card to support 128 users on a cloud service. Any ideas on how they do that?

Comments

  • FranciscoFrancisco Top Provider

    likely use either XEN or VMWARE which both support 'vgpu' and then you need to use a nvidia video card that costs $5k sorta deal. KVM doesn't support vGPU yet but there's VIRTIO-GPU that's supposed to support it at some point.

    Francisco

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  • do you know which nvidea card could handle that many gl viewports?

  • jarjar Provider

    These services are starting to look like nearly vaporware. I preordered one just like it over a year ago.

    Founder @ MXroute

  • I couldn't get VMWare Workstation to pass on the card. It kept virtualising it, so meh, slash that off the list.

  • @jarland said:
    These services are starting to look like nearly vaporware. I preordered one just like it over a year ago.

    Was it leap computing? I jumped ship a while ago.

  • @AdamM said:
    LiquidSky uses one Nvidia graphics card to support 128 users on a cloud service. Any ideas on how they do that?

    It's based on the S3 Trio.

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  • jarjar Provider

    @Dextronox said:

    @jarland said:
    These services are starting to look like nearly vaporware. I preordered one just like it over a year ago.

    Was it leap computing? I jumped ship a while ago.

    Yeah. They're still active and exist, but it seems like they're just not able to get off the ground. I think they all might be learning why onlive failed early, and holding off to make a perfect strategy.

    Amazon GPU is probably what they should focus on at this point, dynamically scale cost based on demand.

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  • pbgbenpbgben Member, Provider

    @AdamM said:
    according to this article: http://venturebeat.com/2016/08/17/liquidsky-aims-to-revive-cloud-gaming-with-modernized-service/

    LiquidSky uses one Nvidia graphics card to support 128 users on a cloud service. Any ideas on how they do that?

    Uses CitrixXenDesk with an Nvidia GRID as the GPU, they're designed to pass through to the hypervisor as multiple separate GPU's so that you can run many VM's with their own "Dedicated" GPU core. The 128 is a marketing number, I would doubt that is possible with what they're promising.

    See this blog on how it works (vGPU)
    https://www.citrix.com/blogs/2015/11/06/nvidia-m60-support-on-xenserver/

    See this for XenDesktop (What they use to provide this service)
    http://www.nvidia.com/object/xen-desktop.html

    See this as... Well, I was blessed to play with one of these units :P

  • pbgbenpbgben Member, Provider

    @Dextronox said:

    @jarland said:
    These services are starting to look like nearly vaporware. I preordered one just like it over a year ago.

    Was it leap computing? I jumped ship a while ago.

    Onlive?

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  • pbgbenpbgben Member, Provider

    Also, I have the files that run the local UI on the platform. If you'd like to decompile and share then PM.

  • Guessing that 128 users means 128 monthly users, not 128 concurrent users. There will likely be 8-16 users max per card concurrently.

    I like my uptime down low and my servers all hacked. Can see me droppin' twenty-fours with a router in the rack.
    Ya like ya Switch-Ports hot and ya servers all hacked. If ya pings real high and ya networks pitch black.

  • mailcheapmailcheap Member, Provider
    edited December 2016

    What about the latency? This is the biggest hurdle for cloud gaming; Most gamers wouldn't want anything more than 5 ms.

    Pavin.

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  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

    @mailcheap said:
    What about the latency? This is the biggest hurdle for cloud gaming; Most gamers wouldn't want anything more than 5 ms.

    Pavin.

    This server GPU cards aren't made for gaming but for complicated math tasks.

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  • interesting to see how this model works out, has anyone used liquidsky? reviews?

  • VPNshVPNsh Member, Provider

    @AdamM said:
    interesting to see how this model works out, has anyone used liquidsky? reviews?

    I've been using it for a few days, but only for a turn-based game that doesn't require decent latency. I'll be trying a couple of FPS games tomorrow and shall let you know how they perform then.

    It would be worth your while checking their locations, to ensure that one is physically close to you.

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  • blackblack Member
    edited December 2016

    I used to have onapp, which worked pretty well for single player games. That was almost 5 years ago so the technology could've matured a lot more since then.

  • I've actually looked into the task manager and I saw Xen guest processes. The DCs are Softlayer (at least for Dallas)

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  • mailcheapmailcheap Member, Provider

    @Clouvider said:

    @mailcheap said:
    What about the latency? This is the biggest hurdle for cloud gaming; Most gamers wouldn't want anything more than 5 ms.

    Pavin.

    This server GPU cards aren't made for gaming but for complicated math tasks.

    Most games run similar to GTX Titan X on Quadro cards; I think it was Linus who made a video about it recently.

    Pavin.

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  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

    @mailcheap said:

    @Clouvider said:

    @mailcheap said:
    What about the latency? This is the biggest hurdle for cloud gaming; Most gamers wouldn't want anything more than 5 ms.

    Pavin.

    This server GPU cards aren't made for gaming but for complicated math tasks.

    Most games run similar to GTX Titan X on Quadro cards; I think it was Linus who made a video about it recently.

    Pavin.

    That's not what I meant. What I mean is, you don't sell servers or VMs with a GPU for the purpose of playing games remotely.

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  • pbgbenpbgben Member, Provider

    @Clouvider said:

    @mailcheap said:

    @Clouvider said:

    @mailcheap said:
    What about the latency? This is the biggest hurdle for cloud gaming; Most gamers wouldn't want anything more than 5 ms.

    Pavin.

    This server GPU cards aren't made for gaming but for complicated math tasks.

    Most games run similar to GTX Titan X on Quadro cards; I think it was Linus who made a video about it recently.

    Pavin.

    That's not what I meant. What I mean is, you don't sell servers or VMs with a GPU for the purpose of playing games remotely.

    Typically, this is true. But nothing is done untill its done. Right?

    The K2 cards they're using are not designed for gaming, that doesn't mean they cant be used for gaming though. They perform fine if used for gaming.

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  • @jarland said:
    These services are starting to look like nearly vaporware. I preordered one just like it over a year ago.

    If you choose a plan and pay them you can immediately create servers.

    I signed up for the Pay-as-You-Go plan and paid $5 for 10 SkyCredits (10 hours). They provid a LiquidSky client to access your "SkyComputer".

    SkyComputer

    A screenshot of the device manager:

    Device Manager

    The GPU GRID K280Q is a vGPU from Nvidia GRID K2. A screenshot from Nvidia control panel:

    System Information

    I tried running GPU-Z but the system crashed each time I opened it.

    Anvil disk benchmarks:

    Anvil

    The server has 3 cores, 8GB RAM and a 100GB disk (Gamer and Unlimited plans have 500GB and 1TB disks).

    I wanted to try out a game quickly, so I downloaded Doom 3 demo. There was some tearing initially but switching to fullscreen fixed it. Games can be downloaded via Steam or directly from the Internet but they dislike torrents. Unused credits roll over to the next month and are capped at 720. The disk is retained if you login once in every 7 days.

    I tested this on an 8Mbps ADSL connection that had a latency of 18-20ms to this server and I must say the experience was a satisfactory.

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  • blackblack Member
    edited December 2016

    @jesin can you try a multiplayer game like csgo? What's the latency like?

    Do you know if they cap FPS to 30 or 60 @ 1080p? What about higher resolutions like 3k/4k?

  • pbgbenpbgben Member, Provider

    @black said:
    @jesin can you try a multiplayer game like csgo? What's the latency like?

    Do you know if they cap FPS to 30 or 60 @ 1080p? What about higher resolutions like 3k/4k?

    I would not recommend laying FPS Multiplayer games. Latency is a big player in those games. Single player fps is fine and most other game types too. I see this as a platform for people addicted to MMO's as they will be able to play anywhere with a 3g> connection.

    My experience was that the FPS to the client was capped, the game was able to achieve whatever fps it liked. They only support 720 and 1080 at this time, and I would bet they will stay with those as the compression of the video stream they're transmitting back to the client is the limiting factor. Also, the client is stuck to a aspect ratio, I could not go full screen on a 4:3 display.

  • pbgben said: My experience was that the FPS to the client was capped, the game was able to achieve whatever fps it liked.

    Do you remember / know what it was capped to?

  • hzrhzr Member, Moderator

    its a radio button that toggles 30/60

  • pbgbenpbgben Member, Provider

    @black said:

    pbgben said: My experience was that the FPS to the client was capped, the game was able to achieve whatever fps it liked.

    Do you remember / know what it was capped to?

    This was on the high 2credits/hr plan (May be the same GPU power but with twice the cpu/ram)

  • I see they have a datacenter in Mexico, so it seems they use softlayer.

    i will try it later at home.

    Nothing for the moment

  • I wanted to test it too, doubting it will really work, however, the prices are pretty steep for me. Unfortunately, I expect the MMOs to ban datacenter ranges in most cases sooner or later and I do not see another usage, single player is not really a thing to pay so much for. An ebay laptop for 200 should probably do.

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  • They use softlayer with different locations all around the world.

    I am testing the 14,99 package which will give you 80 hours of playtime and 500GB space.

    I tested Frankfurt and Amsterdam DC on a 50mbit connection from Germany. I am connected to my router via Ethernet cable because 2.4Ghz is overcrowded in my area and will deliver bad results.

    Is this service usable? Not yet in my opinion. During peak time I recognize frequent stuttering and freezes which makes the playing experience very frustrating. Off peak you get better results because stuttering and freezing appear more rarely than in peak times.

    Forget about Multiplayer FPS. The additional latency is recognizable and not nice for competitive gaming. However casual FPS players might be satisfied. With other non latency critical games I see no problems.

    I tested this on my high performance gaming rig just out of curiosity.

    While the idea is good to support many platforms from the economical view (more potential clients) I feel like it also a good idea to work on an own platform like a gaming box in additon with own hardware. This way they can fine tune software + hardware. Every device is different and they will have a problem to support them all. On my game rig alone I have the possibility to use Cuda, DXVA and software decoder.

  • Can you use these Skycomputers for general purpose VPS stuff with CUDA and such, or is it streamlined such that you can only play games on it?

  • @AdamM said:
    Can you use these Skycomputers for general purpose VPS stuff with CUDA and such, or is it streamlined such that you can only play games on it?

    On the unlimited plan, it says it boots you after 30 mins of inactivity. I suppose they suspend the VM so if someone reverse engineers the activity ping, it should probably work.

  • pbgbenpbgben Member, Provider

    @deadbeef said:

    @AdamM said:
    Can you use these Skycomputers for general purpose VPS stuff with CUDA and such, or is it streamlined such that you can only play games on it?

    On the unlimited plan, it says it boots you after 30 mins of inactivity. I suppose they suspend the VM so if someone reverse engineers the activity ping, it should probably work.

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  • @deadbeef said:

    @AdamM said:
    Can you use these Skycomputers for general purpose VPS stuff with CUDA and such, or is it streamlined such that you can only play games on it?

    On the unlimited plan, it says it boots you after 30 mins of inactivity. I suppose they suspend the VM so if someone reverse engineers the activity ping, it should probably work.

    Yes, if you have the other plans you can set the timeout to 1 hour manually.

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  • rickey318rickey318 Member, Provider

    @deadbeef said:

    @AdamM said:
    Can you use these Skycomputers for general purpose VPS stuff with CUDA and such, or is it streamlined such that you can only play games on it?

    On the unlimited plan, it says it boots you after 30 mins of inactivity. I suppose they suspend the VM so if someone reverse engineers the activity ping, it should probably work.

    I have seen post that they suspend you if they think you are using any tools to hack the limit

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  • what about to use any kind of miner?

    Nothing for the moment

  • @rickey318 said:

    @deadbeef said:

    @AdamM said:
    Can you use these Skycomputers for general purpose VPS stuff with CUDA and such, or is it streamlined such that you can only play games on it?

    On the unlimited plan, it says it boots you after 30 mins of inactivity. I suppose they suspend the VM so if someone reverse engineers the activity ping, it should probably work.

    I have seen post that they suspend you if they think you are using any tools to hack the limit

    Even if you're just playing for very long amounts of time, like 8 hours, they'll forcefully shut down your VM.

    I never really used it because latency is pretty bad and even older games run pretty bad compared to my Desktop or even Notebook.

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  • I have signed in for the trial but havent been contacted yet. Judging by the things you say, It would not work for my case anyway, I need 24/7 logged in char for shop and, considering i would afford it, they would boot me anyway, so, no point.

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  • This is a very interesting topic.

    So in essence I could have a potato Laptop connecting to a VM provided by the provider and the client software, and be able to play games at least at 30FPS, at high textures?

    Am i tripping or this is the summary?

  • Hxxx said: Am i tripping or this is the summary?

    That's my thinking, and question... could be an excellent service when refined.

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  • LiquidSky made a presentation in CES 2017 with some interesting changes.

    There will be an ad supported plan which is totally free for 3 hours a day.

    LiquidSky Pricing

    They've done away with the unlimited plan. Also the credit system has been changed from 1 credit = 1 hour to 1 credit = 1 minute, their support said existing credits will be multiped by 60.

    New configs:

    Packages

    All this will release on March, details about can be found on their blog.

    There is an ongoing AMA with the CEO happening here - https://community.liquidsky.tv/t/ama-hi-im-the-ceo-of-liquidsky-ian-mcloughlin-ask-me-anything/5013

    The CEO said existing "SkyComputers" will be deleted during transition as they're moving towards Windows 10/Windows Server 2016 and asked users to backup anything they have important.

  • WSSWSS Member

    Their CEO isn't as old as my socks.

  • jarjar Provider

    @Hxxx said:
    This is a very interesting topic.

    So in essence I could have a potato Laptop connecting to a VM provided by the provider and the client software, and be able to play games at least at 30FPS, at high textures?

    Am i tripping or this is the summary?

    Yeah that's pretty much it. Except the software client is kind of crap. I was playing Tropico 5 for a good bit with no input lag or anything. A more ideal kind of game for any such scenario, of course, given a drop in FPS is almost unnoticeable. The client continually reported over 100fps. Then I got disconnected for inactivity in the middle of a game.

    Buggy, but I'll pay for it for one reason: I want this so badly. I don't buy computers for gaming, but I'd love to play a PC game every now and then. But I know me, if I bought a gaming desktop, I'd spend $3000 on the computer AND buy the Vive. This is a better use of my impulse spending ;)

    Founder @ MXroute

  • "The cost of electricity alone is 30usd+ per month for a powerful gaming pc"

    Assuming 0.20 usd/kWh and full-time equivalent usage (24/7) that would need a pc of average 200watts. That's some insane pc that can pull 200w continuously.

    I like my uptime down low and my servers all hacked. Can see me droppin' twenty-fours with a router in the rack.
    Ya like ya Switch-Ports hot and ya servers all hacked. If ya pings real high and ya networks pitch black.

  • WSSWSS Member

    @teamacc said:
    "The cost of electricity alone is 30usd+ per month for a powerful gaming pc"

    Assuming 0.20 usd/kWh and full-time equivalent usage (24/7) that would need a pc of average 200watts. That's some insane pc that can pull 200w continuously.

    You have purchased a video card or owned an AMD Athlon powered machine at one point, right?

  • rickey318rickey318 Member, Provider

    @WSS said:
    Their CEO isn't as old as my socks.

    They are pretty young not older group of team. I did get to skype with the ceo and one of the lead developers doing the start of the project with alot of great things ahead.

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