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Dutch government will introduce forced decryption law - Page 2
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Dutch government will introduce forced decryption law

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Comments

  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider

    @qenox said: Those who use encryption are not your average users; those who do use, e.g. truecrypt, have some idea of what it entails and the status, etc.

    Sure, exactly like it was in for example Tunisia. Until suddenly, a large part of the population could benefit from encryption to protect themselves and their families. Looking at any kind of weapons (including defensive electronic 'weapons' like disk encryption) in terms of what the situation is like right now, is incredibly naive. The whole point of leaving a possibility for people to protect themselves, is to prepare for the moment it does go wrong. At that point, it's too late to 'repeal' that law.

    @qenox said: You missed the point though where they have to be able to make a reasonable case without the encrypted data. Ie.

    And as I already implied, the Dutch government is very known for not being so strict in giving out permission for "additional investigative measures".

    @qenox said: Read the link, it's highly unlikely; that's the key point to plausible deniability.

    The whole point of a bug is that it's unlikely and unexpected.

    @qenox said: If they can already build a case without it,

    Then they don't need the encrypted data either, right?

    @qenox said: Don't look at the Netherlands in a vacuum though; similar laws have passed elsewhere.

    This law proposal applies to the Netherlands as if it were a vacuum, so I will treat it as one.

    @qenox said: Besides, bad laws get passed all the time, there's a process to repeal them.

    Sure, let me know how that goes for you. Especially with the extreme degree of "learned helplessness" that's going around in NL.

    @qenox said: Again, the sky isn't falling; it's not a law yet. Nothing wrong with being aware, but it's not the end of the world and I doubt it will pass.

    Ah, right, sounds like what people said for the last gazillion bad laws that were passed. How often does it have to go wrong before you realize that even the idea to introduce something like this is already a problem?

  • qenoxqenox Member
    edited November 2012

    Looking at any kind of weapons (including defensive electronic 'weapons' like disk encryption) in terms of what the situation is like right now, is incredibly naive. The whole point of leaving a possibility for people to protect themselves, is to prepare for the moment it does go wrong. At that point, it's too late to 'repeal' that law.

    Government in The Netherlands and Tunesia couldn't be much different.

    You can't predict the future and all you can do when it comes to laws is look at the past and current situation and make the best decision. And if the wrong one is made, then there's a process to repeal a law.

    There's no suggestion to make encryption illegal, as you imply, but the suggestion is to make it possible to put pressure on those (in the form of a jail sentence) for those who are already, legally, known to have broken the law.

    I'm not even in favor of this law, but this "the sky is falling" attitude isn't quite helpful either.

    You do realize current laws would allow for a 3 month sentence if you refused to hand over the keys. This proposal (most likely) will increase it to 6-9 months for two specific cases and clarify the "rules".

    And as I already implied, the Dutch government is very known for not being so strict in giving out permission for "additional investigative measures".

    It's much more restrictive than you suggest.

    Then they don't need the encrypted data either, right?

    They don't, but the suggestion is that if the data contains info about crimes ongoing (e.g. child abuse), would you not want to have the option to put pressure on the suspect to get this data? Or would you just say "ah, well".

    This law proposal applies to the Netherlands as if it were a vacuum, so I will treat it as one.

    No country in the EU operates in a vacuum; with that opinion you're no different than the people proposing this actual law (eyes closed, ears covered).

    Sure, let me know how that goes for you. Especially with the extreme degree of "learned helplessness" that's going around in NL.

    Laws get repealed all the time; hang out with a few law students and ask them to point you to the right direction.

    Ah, right, sounds like what people said for the last gazillion bad laws that were passed. How often does it have to go wrong before you realize that even the idea to introduce something like this is already a problem?

    Then what do you suggest? You don't think it's reasonable for law enforcement to have something (i.e. the possibility of jail time) to obtain this information? Dutch people complain that the judicial and policing system does nothing and is toothless, but you're not really willing to give them any options either.

    Also, the current government is your democratically elected government; if you don't like the direction they are going, then vote them out the next time around. And please don't Godwin this argument now about that other democratically elected leader.

    Again, I'm not in favor of this proposal, but I still don't see any reasonable counter proposal.. and no, encryption isn't going to become illegal.

    Laws are fluid, they change all the time; the fact that it may not be noticable to you or not in your lifetime, that means nothing. Societies are fluid.

  • @joepie91 said: before you realize that even the idea to introduce something like this is already a problem?

    Read that again; who are you to say this isn't a good law proposal? People do have different opinions and discussion is part of that (just like the process of ascension from proposal to law).

    I think it's a proposal that is legally and technically flawed, but making the proposal isn't "a problem", that's how our system of rule and law works...

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2012

    @jarland said: His point is that he hates Christians. I know, it's odd that LET is his venue of choice.

    I dont hate any specific group of ppl, I hate religion in it's political form, i.e. organized religion, state religion, be it Judaism, Christianity, Muslim, Shinto, Animism, whatever is trying to force the view of that specific dogma on everyone else by making laws about it.
    In my view, forcing women to wear veils or to give birth is similar and stems from the same views inspired from books,as well as restricting rights for large categories of citizens, be them women, gays, other religion ppl under various pretexts, from debauchery to prozelitism.
    The state and religion should be apart, yet they are fighting a common enemy, and that is the freedom of speech.
    When we have religion in school (when we declare that the kids are not able to make their own decisions themselves), when doctrines like creationism and global warming being a normal natural phenomenon are taught and even imposed on ppl, when to be able to have a job you must hide your religion or sexual orientation, not only in government and school jobs, but in general, almost, then there is a big problem and the church is the main driving force in this offensive.
    That is why I dont like it, because it tries to impose on MY thoughts, on MY beliefs, on MY life, when I am not harming anyone so the state should have no business spying on me.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited November 2012

    @Maounique So you needed to express how you think Christians might violently harm people to protect their beliefs in a discussion about... the legality of encryption?

    Bravo sir, you are a master at ignoring the real issue. The real issue is that you cannot separate the hosting industry from your personal opinions. Your personal opinions, as stated in other posts that were far less detailed and read more as brief attacks and bursts of bitterness, are irrelevant here.

    I find your statements insulting, offensive, and "needless" shouldn't even have to be stated. Just look at the website and thread titles. Can you tell me what your freedom of speech is accomplishing by offending me today? The best way to lose it is to use it as a weapon.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2012

    As I said before, but you probably havent bothered to read, this is highly related to encryption since trolls like you are bringing into the light the old argument, no honest citizen will ever need to encrypt anything and privacy is a pretext to hide illegal activities.
    I think I explained why privacy is needed, and why ppl need to hide from religious freaks that try and succeed to use the state in trying to impose their dogma on everyone.
    Other than that, you are entitled to your opinion about me. I will try to give you a voice when everyone would try to silence you, your religion will not rule forever, at least not the present religion, one day the atheists or muslims might be in power, like the communists were and are, when they will try to silence you and mock the whatever god you have, you will find me on your side, facing the other trolls from the other side.

  • @joepie91

    Next we do: not STORING evidence, as in logs

  • @joepie91 said: It is, yes. The problem is that this wouldn't be the first time a law is pushed anyway, regardless of what our constitution says (yes, we do have one).

    Sounds like the Netherlands is turning into the US (Patriot Act)

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    Yes, they are experiencing a rise of the extreme right lately.

  • It's funny how politicians these days have been aiming left, right and center at the interwebs...controlling information on the internet, monitoring IP's, the great firewall, etc...it's been a point of contention that will only get more heated as days go by I guess...good luck to us all.

  • @Paul said: controlling information

    It is the greatest threat to their power

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2012

    @miTgiB said: It is the greatest threat to their power

    governments fear the word today more than the gun. The fight will be over the internet, if we fail there, then it will be bad for everyone, because blood will flow.

  • @TheHackBox said: Sounds like the Netherlands is turning into the US (Patriot Act)

    Not even close despite what some say.

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