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OpenVZ or KVM?

OpenVZ or KVM?

zhuanyizhuanyi Member
edited October 2012 in Help

So considering the server that I have won, which virtulization would you think would be better for me to start with? KVM or OpenVZ? I was originally planning for Xen PV but it seems most of the answers that I have heard so far are against Xen PV.

Already had some feedback from a few senior members, but just figured I should hear a bit more pros and cons in public.

Thanks people!

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  • Maybe you could tell us more about what direction you want to take with your new business?

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  • @jhadley said: more about what direction you want to take with your new business

    Well, I won't compete for the cheapest VPS providers out there and the services will be largely unmanaged, price point will obviously be set in accordance to the platform used...is there anything else you'd like to know?

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  • rskrsk Member

    Hi,

    If you want an easy to manage solution, I'd suggest openVZ - and once you get things rolling, then maybe get into KVM.

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  • I would suggest openVZ to start. I am not sold on the KVM deal.

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  • I am not aware of any existing KVM providers currently hosting at ColoCrossing - so that may be worth a try, if you want to offer something unique :)

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  • Proxmox VE gives you best of both worlds.

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  • @24khost said: I am not sold on the KVM deal.

    What issues do you have with it, or is it all mental still?

    @zhuanyi to achieve sustainability as fast as possible, which might not be a bad thing as you are on a limited timeframe, OpenVZ might be the answer.

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  • miTgiBmiTgiB Member
    edited October 2012

    @joepie91 said: I am not aware of any existing KVM providers currently hosting at ColoCrossing

    BuyVM? They're are in Buffalo, is @zhuanyi planning Chicago?

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  • So for openVZ on proxmox does it install the openvz container in a kvm?

  • @miTgiB said: is @zhuanyi planning Chicago?

    I think that is the location I am given.

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  • @Raymii said: Proxmox VE

    I do not think the product is that stable yet...

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  • I agree that for your initial services, you should go with OpenVZ. Expect that some people will complain about it, but it is what it is.

    Offer KVM once you're up and going and making a profit. Don't bother with Xen, there's really no point anymore.

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  • ZenZen Member
    edited October 2012

    @24khost said: So for openVZ on proxmox does it install the openvz container in a kvm?

    .....

    @zhuanyi said: I do not think the product is that stable yet...

    Insanely stable, much more than SolusVM or any other relatively cheap commercial panel. There's a reason BuyVM roll Debian.

  • @zhuanyi personally I prefer buying KVM (or Xen) and I expect to pay more. I don't know your technical skills and normally I'd say "go with what you know best" to get started with. But if you're looking to have someone else admin the node then I'd suggest going for KVM in Chicago as its less common. If you are the admin and you've never managed either, I'd say OpenVZ with a KVM chaser further down the line :).

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  • After using both openVZ and KVM I would not go back to openVZ. KVM is more isolated and the resources are guaranteed.

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  • I would recommend KVM - you can sell windows VPS in addition to your linux VPS then :)

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  • @hostdog said: resources are guaranteed.

    lol?

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  • ZenZen Member
    edited October 2012

    As a client, many will prefer KVM/Xen because of the off-the-shelf appearance of guaranteed resources, but the truth is that all virtualization types can be oversold to some degree, and that overselling is not a bad thing. The chances of you actually not being given the resources you were promised in this industry is extremely rare.

    On the other side, people don't look at the obvious advantages of OpenVZ like the ability to deploy servers extremely quickly and the ease of management, it is generally much more flexible. As a client you shouldn't write off OpenVZ straight away because of your own misinterpretations (like the overselling argument).

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  • @Zen My question refers to the fact that proxmox can install both openvz and kvm, and from the way it read on the website on the same system. So i was asking if it installed the openvz container in a kvm like others have talked about doing here for backup purposes.

  • ChiefChief Member
    edited October 2012

    @24khost said: So i was asking if it installed the openvz container in a kvm like others have talked about doing here for backup purposes.

    No, it creates both on the same host node. Allowing over-commitment of OpenVZ, and taking away KVM resources as allocated.

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  • ZenZen Member

    @24khost said: My question refers to the fact that proxmox can install both openvz and kvm, and from the way it read on the website on the same system. So i was asking if it installed the openvz container in a kvm like others have talked about doing here for backup purposes.

    No it does not, not sure how it would do that either from a back-end point of view. It runs both KVM and OpenVZ with the option for both.

  • @Chief thanks. Okay, I was wondering. As I know that thrustvps used to have a reseller program that, the way I understand it used to install a Xen vps with openvz installed in it so that you could offer vps to your clients. Was wondering if it was the same idea.

  • ChiefChief Member
    edited October 2012

    @Zen said: No it does not, not sure how it would do that either from a back-end point of view.

    Easy enough....

    Install proxmox on the host node, create a KVM and install proxmox inside the KVM. Then cluster the two proxmox installs together ;) Then you could live migrate for example your OpenVZ's from the host node to inside the KVM :D

    Other option for doing both virtualisations on the single node...

    Install Solus/KVM on the host node, create a 8GB KVM.
    Install Solus/OpenVZ inside the KVM.

    Solus sees these as 2 separate nodes, you can now oversell the OpenVZ platform inside KVM, and you can sell standard KVM with allocated resources. It will require 2 licenses but there's a way without proxmox.

    Clear as mud?

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  • So theoretically possible, highly undersireable.

  • @24khost said: So theoretically possible, highly undersireable.

    Which option is undesirable, and could you explain why...

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  • the openvz inside kvm

  • ChiefChief Member
    edited October 2012

    @24khost said: the openvz inside kvm

    Fair enough, but why would it be undesirable? You stated it was undesirable, I would like to know the reasons. Curious that's all.

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  • ZenZen Member
    edited October 2012

    @Chief said: Easy enough....

    Install proxmox on the host node, create a KVM and install proxmox inside the KVM. Then cluster the two proxmox installs together ;) Then you could live migrate for example your OpenVZ's from the host node to inside the KVM :D

    Other option for doing both virtualisations on the single node...

    Install Solus/KVM on the host node, create a 8GB KVM. Install Solus/OpenVZ inside the KVM.

    Solus sees these as 2 separate nodes, you can now oversell the OpenVZ platform inside KVM, and you can sell standard KVM with allocated resources. It will require 2 licenses but there's a way without proxmox.

    Clear as mud?

    Fully understand how it can be done manually as you explained, my comment was based on Proxmox doing this automatically.. (which @24khost implied) it would be a nightmare from a coding point of view to automate deployment of a KVM machine just so that you can deploy OpenVZ inside of that when you can just have them alongside each other and as you stated let the user do the above manually.

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  • KVM virtualization as you can run a lot more OSes. Like own dedicated server.

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  • virtulization inside virtulization. Sounds like more trouble then it's worth.

  • @qhoster said: KVM virtualization as you can run a lot more OSes.

    If you mean windows, i would advise @zhuanyi to stay away from that sh*t. Sure, there is some market opportunity there, but the profit to trouble ratio is probably not very good.

  • which @24khost implied

    @Zen I was wondering if the origional node provisioning, was set with a large KVM that was installed with and openvz container in it.

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  • JackJack Member
    edited October 2012

    OVZ in KVM has it's downside.

    I had an issue of where the KVM was only showing ~40mbit of speed when H/N had close to 900mbit.

    Disk IO drops quite a bit too.

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  • @Chief What @Jack said would make it undesirable.

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  • I'd pick openvz to start with then offer kvm on the next server.

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  • I would vote OpenVZ for a variety of factors.

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  • JarJar Member
    edited October 2012

    Weighing in here with OpenVZ as well. I find that OpenVZ is actually easier to manage and better system administration practice at the same time because it's a little easier to observe usage patterns. That's just my opinion of it anyway.

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  • openVZ

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  • @zhuanyi Normally I would have said OpenVZ like many others, but considering how far KVM support has come in SolusVM I would say to go for KVM + SolusVM. I have submitted a bunch of bug reports to SolusVM, including the SWAP issue with gen. 2 templates and the network configuration not being run when a new VM was being created or re-installed. Solus Labs has fixed all of the above in version 1.13.01. It is not easy to get trough to them when you send in a bug report, and many others here probably know this, because their first assumption is that you did something wrong. However if you are persistent then they will listen.

    @Chief what would be your recommendations as far as I/O scheduler settings go for the host and guests if @zhuanyi decides to go with KVM?

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  • @rds100 said: If you mean windows, i would advise @zhuanyi to stay away from that sh*t. Sure, there is some market opportunity there, but the profit to trouble ratio is probably not very good.

    I agree with that, after reading all the stories about Windows, I think it is out of the picture for now.

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  • @zhuanyi said: I was originally planning for Xen PV

    I'd say stick with your original plan.

    For hosting, Xen PV is great. And I think there's a bit of a market opportunity for lowend Xen in mid/east US.

    Otherwise go with KVM. OpenVZ providers are a dime a dozen.

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  • jcalebjcaleb Moderator

    kvm

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  • @sleddog said: Otherwise go with KVM. OpenVZ providers are a dime a dozen.

    Honestly that is why I initially chose XenPV over KVM and OVZ.

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  • RandyRandy Disabled

    Openvz so u can oversell

  • @zhuanyi We have tried to offer Windows on KVM, but the number of customers that will abuse it is just crazy. You will do fine with KVM, just keep in mind that on single quad core CPU you shouldn't assign 4 cores to any VM.

    @Randy ?

  • KVM or Xen

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  • @zhuanyi said: I do not think the product is that stable yet...

    Have deployed it at multiple companies that hired me, rock-solid stable, the admins there are luving it too...

    @Zen said: Insanely stable, much more than SolusVM or any other relatively cheap commercial panel. There's a reason BuyVM roll Debian.

    +1

    @Zen said: No it does not, not sure how it would do that either from a back-end point of view. It runs both KVM and OpenVZ with the option for both.

    It has a debian linux kernel with the KVM and OpenVZ modules enabled at the same time. You can create OpenVZ and KVM containers/VMs and run them next to eachother. Also, it does HA/clustering fairly well.

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  • @zhuanyi I would say that while Xen will perform nicely on a server like yours, just don't. CentOS 5 supports Xen but it is outdated, and for CentOS 6 you will have to put together or maintain your own packages, and you need more than one server so that you can do some testing before you deploy any changes or updates. I vote for KVM, but if you want an easy start with minimal expenses then I vote for OpenVZ. Customers will overlook the virtualization technology most of the time if you offer them good service, and on managed service they don't even care because they pay you to see results.

    I used to hold XenPV in high regards, and not to long ago I was even arguing with @miTgiB and others about how great and superior it is to other virtualization technologies. Since SolusVM support improved for KVM and I have learned more about it, I can honestly say that KVM is awesome, extremely flexible and very easy and convenient to use.

    @Randy I meant: please define overselling. Is it CPU, I/O or RAM? Because you can oversell any of those, more or less depending on the virtualization technology that you are using. With Xen you can oversell CPU and I/O extremely easy for example. All that matters is the final performance that the customer is getting. In theory, if he could oversell RAM 2:1 and the customer would still get good performance then who cares?

  • Every man and his dog does OpenVZ. What will you to to distinguish yourself?

    Other than the fact that you've got 6 months of costs paid in advance to get you going what will be your edge?

    Trying both systems may be technically more challenging but it gives you the chance to check out both types at the same time and see what types of customers are attracted to the different types and for what reasons, but I suspect those who prefer KVM will create lower support demands than OpenVZ. I'd say go for KVM initially and then go for OpenVZ if there are limits to the preference people have for it, which in my experience comes down to changing the password when you forget it, but nothing that can't be fixed with a recovery disk and chroot.

    Whatever the case may be maintaining a good reputation for honesty and reliability will be your best asset. Reliability will come with practice and experience but the honesty is down to the person you are.

  • RandyRandy Disabled

    Only hd and bw. ;-)

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