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Would you check the legitimacy of a DMCA request?
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Would you check the legitimacy of a DMCA request?

chrispchrisp Member
edited November 2014 in General

Hi providers,

I have seen quite a few websites, that got problems with false DMCA requests recently. I don't want to name them now, but let's just look at orlydb.com. I think we can all agree, that there are just names of releases, that the warez scene made. So I don't want to talk about the topic itself, but rather about the way that companies like MarkMonitor and others catch as "illegal" content by their automated algorithms.

So how can it be, that this website, that obviously offers no download links and doesn't even link to downloads in any way, receives content removal requests on google?
http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/removals/copyright/domains/orlydb.com/

But my main question to you providers is: Do you actually care for the legitimacy of a DMCA request or will you just believe it's a legitimate request and do what you normally do in this case (suspend, inform customer, inform authorities..whatever)?

We all know, that there have been some embarrassing cases of removal requests like this one: https://torrentfreak.com/microsoft-wants-google-to-censor-microsoft-com-130728/

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Comments

  • I personally believe you are doing something wrong if you don't check the legitimacy of any service abuse request. Throwing around client notices and service suspensions haphazardly is irresponsible.

  • We check every request by hand to ensure that it is a real and fair request. Its the only way we see it as fair for everyone.

  • chrispchrisp Member
    edited November 2014

    @fizzyjoe908 and @SNetworks1 That is good to hear, but I know for sure there are providers, that wouldn't. A large example is Hetzner, who would just tell you if you don't cooporate they will shut you down. And it doesn't matter why some algorithm catched your site. It may be only because you will offer links to legitimate mp3 download platforms with affiliate links or something.
    Do you receive fake DMCA requests made by machines or idiots often?

  • Why not just forward it to the customer so they can deal with/ignore it?

  • @chrisp said:
    fizzyjoe908 and SNetworks1 That is good to hear, but I know for sure there are providers, that wouldn't. A large example is Hetzner, who would just tell you if you don't cooporate they will shut you down. And it doesn't matter why some algorithm catched your site. It may be only because you will offer links to legitimate mp3 download platforms with affiliate links or something.
    Do you receive fake DMCA requests made by machines or idiots often?

    I think we have had 1 or 2 DMCA Take down notices in our time, all of which were ignored as DMCA's due to our location.

    Our policy is rather simple, if someone is hosting illegal content, we will take action, but filing requests that dont apply wont get you anywhere, we will still investigate the content, but we have no legal obligation being out of the US to even read DMCA's (From my understanding and what we have been recommended).

    Our policy is that if illegal / questionable content is found to suspend the users service in question and contact them asking for info, if its legal and such. If its clearly not we will decide if it is worth termination or just removal of the files.

    Thanked by 1alessio
  • NyrNyr Community Contributor, Veteran

    hostnoob said: Why not just forward it to the customer so they can deal with/ignore it?

    Because the ISP is responsible of the content hosted on their network if they get notified of abuse and don't act.

  • @Nyr said:
    Because the ISP is responsible of the content hosted on their network if they get notified of abuse and don't act.

    You can forward some responsibility onto the client but there has to be a point where you the provider has to just stop the issue If the client won't..

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    It depends. Italy is out of US but illegal hosting is illegal and we have a clear provision in our ToS/AUP that any illegal activity is forbidden. Copyright infringement is illegal in EU as well.
    That being said, we do receive fake ones as well as malformed, without all the data, etc. We investigate anyway, and if the customer is found infringing the ToS/AUP will be suspended, no matter if the DMCA is legal or not, we act as if we received a tip-off about something illegal one of our customers is doing.

  • 24 hours for customer to reply or their account is suspended, although anything that looks like rubbish gets ignored. On VPS hosting it's normally 48 hours.

  • disable your adblock, orlydb has small scam dl link next to their text release name.

  • as a policy we ignore DMCA. EU company not american company.

  • said: Would you check the legitimacy of a DMCA request?

    US-only What else should you do?

  • rokok said: disable your adblock, orlydb has small scam dl link next to their text release name.

    I see, but that doesn't even go anywhere. It's some scam link. I think this is an interesting topic, because I think there is absolutely no legal problem with orlydb for example.

    The thing here is, that I would like to run an information site (but without scam download links like orly does) too. That said, of course there is absolutely nothing illegal about it, but it would clearly catch the attention of stupid filtering mechanisms and therefore attract DMCA. I can totally understand if you as a provider don't care if it's legal or illegal and just don't want any trouble at all with any DMCA.

    But my point here is, that I feel this whole copyright thing is getting out of hands - like when Microsofts brand protection agencies let google delete Microsoft links. And you cannot be sure your provider would understand the situation if something similar happens here too.

  • alessio said: US-only What else should you do?

    It's not about the country though. An illegitimate DMCA request is illegitimate in the US too. I am not asking to ignore DMCA messages and I think when it's legitimate everyone in the world should comply, but I am rather concerned that everyone will trust them blindly, although often there is no point in them.

  • chrisp said: It's not about the country though.

    Well, it is.

    chrisp said: An illegitimate DMCA request is illegitimate in the US too.

    True, but in the US you have to verify and act upon it, while outside of US jurisdiction you only have to comply with local law and can bin anything DMCA-specific.

  • Ok thanks @alessio, that is a difference indeed. I meant for me it's no difference if you have a false positive in US, EU or asia. But sure you would still need to comply with your laws.

  • text only still can be dmca-ing, like trademark words/image.
    some called it copyright troll, if content popular/ showing on search engine, expect dmca stuff. you just cant cant blame the robotic mistakes sending mass thing, its your job to filters those errors as vps provider, probably copyright troll wont do much deal with small operator, waste of money ;p

    not quite interested about this dmca thing just my assumption lol

  • alessioalessio Member
    edited November 2014

    chrisp said: I meant for me it's no difference if you have a false positive in US, EU or asia.

    Absolutely correct.

    Why I wrote US-only in my initial response was simply because if you have to comply with US laws (read, DMCA) then what else should one do? Simply suspend because it says DMCA, regardless of any validity?

  • No @rds100, but it just backs my point up.

    Basically, the question is: Would you host sites like orlydb although it creates DMCA complaints? Because as said I am working on an information site, that would in my opinion be 100% legal, but could attract the attention of automated methods to find warez and therefore false positives in DMCA complaints ;(

    rokok said: you just cant cant blame the robotic mistakes sending mass thing

    Well yes, you can. It's the job of those companies scanning for copyright infringements to check very carefully and not to block everything that in any way includes some buzzwords that sound illegal.

    I think DMCA in general is a "good" law or at least the idea is good. But all those companies scanning for suspicous file names only, that feels like another way of DoS. Because in the end no provider would want to handle a sh**load of DMCA complaints and denies the service for a customer.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2014

    chrisp said: I think DMCA in general is a "good" law or at least the idea is good. But all those companies scanning for suspicous file names only, that feels like another way of DoS. Because in the end no provider would want to handle a sh**load of DMCA complaints and denies the service for a customer.

    Completely agree, the robots can be sued for inacurate DMCA requests, you can put a lot of links to /dev/null that look like /donload-microsoft-office-2013 /download-insert-latest-batspiderman-movie-here and if your provider receives tons of automated requests and your site is taken down as a result, you can sue for damages. Sure, that will not work, but it can be a starting point for troll-traps.

  • @Maounique said:
    It depends. Italy is out of US but illegal hosting is illegal and we have a clear provision in our ToS/AUP that any illegal activity is forbidden. Copyright infringement is illegal in EU as well.
    That being said, we do receive fake ones as well as malformed, without all the data, etc. We investigate anyway, and if the customer is found infringing the ToS/AUP will be suspended, no matter if the DMCA is legal or not, we act as if we received a tip-off about something illegal one of our customers is doing.

    So you receive fake-abuse and then investigate if the customer is actually doing something that you won't like the customer to do?
    Who are you? The USA?

    Thanked by 1HostNun
  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2014

    No, by fake i mean automated. Normally, DMCAs must be done by an individual who can support the penalty for perjury, an automated program cant, however, if the DMCA seems like pointing to a real issue, offering links or name of the work distributed without license through bittorrent, for example, we do check the validity of such claims and if the customer is found to be engaged in illegal activities, the service is terminated for our ToS/AUP (which forbids illegal activities) violation, not for the DMCA.
    Copyright infringement is illegal in EU too, so, this means our ToS/AUP has been violated so, even if we found out through a fake DMCA, this does not mean the infringement should continue, nor that our ToS/AUP do not apply.

  • Maounique said: if the DMCA seems like pointing to a real issue, offering links or name of the work distributed without license through bittorrent, for example, we do check the validity of such claims and if the customer is found to be engaged in illegal activities, the service is terminated for our ToS/AUP (which forbids illegal activities) violation, not for the DMCA.

    Exactly that is what I would expect from a professional provider.

    Thanked by 2Maounique aglodek
  • @chrisp said:
    Exactly that is what I would expect from a professional provider.

    I would expect providers like prometeus to not check further if evidence can't be contained by the original abuse message. Nobody needs a provider that plays detective.

  • rds100rds100 Member
    edited November 2014

    tr1cky said: I would expect providers like prometeus to not check further if evidence can't be contained by the original abuse message. Nobody needs a provider that plays detective.

    And providers don't like when cops come bothering them. And it inevitably happens if they slack too much and don't investigate and terminate potential problems.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    rds100 said: And providers don't like when cops come bothering them.

    It happens even if you investigate, I think one visit a month is the average so far, not to mention official papers from judges asking for logs we do not keep.
    Playing detective means you are going after something and we are not doing that, but if we have evidence someone is breaking the law and our terms, we will investigate.
    If your employer receives a letter with something which looks like valid evidence you are sabotaging him or using the company for your own gain, sniffing passwords or social engineering sysadmins to gain forbidden access, would he be forbidden to investigate those claims? I do not think so, but he will have to obey the law, i.e. cannot lock you up in the company building or spy on you, but can investigate firewall logs and the company's phone bill for calls you made.

  • DMCA? What DMCA? :)

    Thanked by 1Mark_R
  • wychwych Member
    edited November 2014

    Yes, but I do know some of the bigger hosts in the UK don't.

    < COUGH > Fasthosts < COUGH >

  • @William said:
    DMCA? What DMCA? :)

    The one bill the entire world appears to be subject to.

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