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fileMEDIA accuses me of hacking and illegal activity, suspends server, denies refund
So yesterday I did some port scanning from my VPS. I checked their TOS beforehand and this wasn't forbidden.
They did got some abuse notice in the morning about it and and suspended my service right away. This how it went when I contacted them:
FM: Yes, you got suspended since port scanning is illegal in Germany
Me: No, it isn't
FM: We don't care, we don't allow it
Me: Fine, but your TOS don't say so, please issue a prorated refund
FM: Yes they do, port scanning is the same as hacking
Me: I didn't hack anything, please refund me
FM: You violated the German criminal code (§ 303b StGB)
Me: No, I didn't, this could apply if I caused some kind of disruption or damage which I didn't.
FM: You should read the law and our ToS correctly. Not going to refund you.
Original ticket about it: http://cl.ly/image/0Q0S141h3Q0e
Honestly, I am bored about this kind of crap. I could have asked beforehand but didn't have time at the moment and I double checked the TOS/AUP to make sure it was fine. I also don't like to be accused of hacking or some shit like that when I didn't. I could understand you don't want to deal with a few abuse notices from some stupid ISPs, but then make it clear in your terms of service.
Also, it's bullshit not to refund me arguing I did something illegal when I did not.
/end of the rant
Comments
@WellGrounded, this may be relevant to your interests.
@filemedia
So you do something stupid that is generally not allowed by most providers and when an abuse complaint comes in and you get suspended you come here to cry about it...
Most providers don't give refunds anyway, why would they give you one when you're generating abuse complaints?
Bottom line: It's not covered by the ToS.
If it isn't forbidden by your TOS/AUP and isn't illegal, I assume it's allowed.
I can't avoid abuse notifications from network administrators which think of port scanning as an offense.
Either part of the ticket is missing or you can see something more than me, I saw no abuse report anywhere there.
If you scan other boxes without permission, its ilegal in Germany.
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__303b.html "Computersabotage"
Were you mass port scanning a billion hosts or just checking if certain services were running on hosts you own? I see nothing wrong with the latter, and nmap is a tool I regularly use on my own PC's and hosted servers...
They did got some abuse notification, which doesn't mean they need to suspend anything over that.
Then I suppose you can quote the law stating so?
External networks not owned my me, but not sending tons of PPS to anyone/not causing any damage.
This refers exclusively to people causing damages or "interfering" with data processing. I didn't do any of this.
Tut Tut.
I didn't break any law nor their terms of service. That's the point of this discussion.
But its correct.
So basically port scanning on networks which you dont own or boxes could be counted as Wikipedia says it: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portscanner (Rechtliche Aspekte)
Do hosts really need to spell this out in the ToS in plain english?
Personally, if it was another system or network you administer I wouldn't see it as an issue.
As its not well, its unwelcomed and more than likely unwarrented.
We got serval abuse messages about open VNC port scanning. We suspended the customer and informed about this case. That is not normal port scanning, it is scanning for open VNC ports which are affected.
date.time srcIP srcPort dstIP dstPort proto #pkts 0813.17:37:03.722 62.113.205.219 46059 134.4.231.3 5900 6 1 0813.17:37:03.914 62.113.205.219 60990 131.215.21.209 5900 6 1 0813.17:37:05.667 62.113.205.219 56491 131.215.254.74 5900 6 2 0813.18:26:26.652 62.113.205.219 38325 134.4.106.130 5900 6 1 0813.18:26:11.420 62.113.205.219 42568 131.215.49.61 5900 6 1 0813.18:29:05.393 62.113.205.219 45619 134.4.101.105 5900 6 1 0813.18:41:07.173 62.113.205.219 43653 134.4.232.78 5900 6 1 0813.18:41:05.766 62.113.205.219 58867 134.4.13.32 5900 6 1 0813.18:41:07.110 62.113.205.219 52850 131.215.95.41 5900 6 1 0813.19:11:59.429 62.113.205.219 53550 134.4.219.163 5900 6 1 0813.19:11:59.875 62.113.205.219 52690 131.215.10.85 5900 6 1 0813.19:12:29.248 62.113.205.219 39086 134.4.238.134 5900 6 1 0813.19:12:36.867 62.113.205.219 57649 131.215.38.93 5900 6 1 0813.19:14:47.580 62.113.205.219 39467 131.215.254.194 5900 6 2 0813.19:14:34.881 62.113.205.219 51671 131.215.15.237 5900 6 1 0813.19:14:34.878 62.113.205.219 41932 131.215.216.30 5900 6 1 0813.19:14:41.601 62.113.205.219 55949 131.215.185.191 5900 6 1 0813.19:14:42.815 62.113.205.219 46754 134.4.21.217 5900 6 1 0813.19:14:44.353 62.113.205.219 52501 134.4.228.221 5900 6 1 0813.19:14:44.929 62.113.205.219 42027 134.4.217.72 5900 6 1Port scanning is not allowed and cause a suspension (ToS & German Law). We can enable the service if no port scans to other host will done, what we said in the ticket. Refunds are not possible if a customer violates against ToS and/or Law.
This is regarding people either sniffing/incercepting data or preparing the comission of an offense referenced on the other articles which doesn't apply to a simple port scan.
Your TOS do NOT mention port scanning. Port scanning ≠ hacking.
The law is at the very least a grey area with no jurisprudence regarding port scanning. The law mentions only acts which cause damage, while a port scan doesn't.
I am very sorry for you Nyr but port scanning is illegal in Germany and you violated the German laws.
Of course they could have stated it clearly in their TOS but they seem to be a bit blinded or something because they expect you to know the German law?!?
@fileMEDIA nicht jeder kennt die Gesetzte Deutschlands für das Internet, etc... Ihr würdet euch selbst und den Kunden mehr helfen, wenn Ihr alles gründlich in der AGB/TOS auflistet. Dann kann auch niemand mehr sagen: "Aber es stand nicht in Ihren AGBs/TOS bla bla".
Denkt bitte darüber nach. Dann würde sowas erst garnicht passieren. Nyr hat die AGBs/TOS gelesen, da stand nichts davon, aber leider kennt er die Gesetzte Deutschlands nicht und dachte es würde nichts passieren. Er hätte garnicht weiter gemacht, wenn es schon als Verbot in den AGBs/TOS stehen würde.
No one has still mentioned a law which forbids this as it's an activity which doesn't cause any kind of distruption on third party networks nor it was done with intent to commit any offense, so I'm not going to be an armchair lawyer but the mentioned laws don't apply here.
Sure, malicious port scanning is also a part of hacking and cause a suspension. It is also included § 303b StGB and is easily described in wiki (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portscanner).
But the other point is that your port scanning cause a block of our subnets from serval other networks and this cause a damage to us and other customer which is also included in ToS and cause a suspension. Both points cause a suspension without any refund and a reactivation is only possible if no damage (port scans) will done from your instances.
Yes they have. You yourself mentioned it was a grey area - but fail to see how a port-scan COULD (I'm not saying I see it that way) be seen as preparation for an attack.
Except I didn't have malitious intentions.
This must be a joke. Seriously some network blocked a subnet of yours instead of just my /32 if they wanted to?
@Nyr & @fileMEDIA you both made mistakes (this is my humble opinion) but I won't blame anyone.
Just improvement suggestions for both: 1) Update your TOS to include such things 2) Before doing this kind of stuff study the laws of the country
If someone really feels attacked about knocking some ports on their network, they should probably disconnect from the internet.
You're twisting my words 'cause that is not at all what I said. In the eyes of the german law it could be seen as preparation. No one other than yourself know if you actually had malicious intent or not.
That's what I thought, innocent until proven guilty.
That would depend on the country's laws in question.
I don't see me being sentenced in either Germany or Spain for some port scanning.
But why were you port scanning. Although I really see your case and I feel you are in your right. It's still worth triple-checking if port scanning is allowed.
@Nyr probably has a fraudrecord post for sending spam now...